Oh, right. Got the wrong end of the stick, sorry. Yeah, I think that there's definitely a market for maybe up to two-hundred in the Middle East. I'd like to think that India could be a decent market as well because I'd imagine that they're going to be looking to replace those Su-30MKI's in the late 2030's or early 2040's but it would mean all the hassle of dealing with the Indian military procurement "system".dmereifield wrote:Sorry, didn't mean to suggest an order pre development, merely that if they were included as partners in the project and that it led to the development of a viable aircraft that between the nations there would be a reasonable sized orderPseudo wrote:I think that the problem with placing an order for an aircraft that doesn't yet exist is that it's all risk and few rewards. There's no guarantee that the project will come to fruition or if it does that it'll meet their requirements. Then what happens if the developer comes to them asking for more money? Finally, even if it does come to fruition and meet their requirements, despite taking those big risks they don't get a share of the profits from their investment.dmereifield wrote:Oh yes, I guess, in theory - though in practice given the politics (and ethics) the UK Government surely wouldn't want to (officially, overtly) partner with SA? Qatar, Oman, Kuwait et al. Is a different matter, and between them, they could provide a large chunk of change and place a sizable order (ca. 60-100 airframes?)Pseudo wrote:Pretty early on in this thread I said that I thought the best development partner for the Uk would be Saudi Arabia because they have a lot of money and little relevant expertise so it would be as close as the UK could get to someone handing them a big bag of money and telling them to get on with it.
Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
Their indigenous content aspirations are a massive faff, that's for sure.Pseudo wrote:Oh, right. Got the wrong end of the stick, sorry. Yeah, I think that there's definitely a market for maybe up to two-hundred in the Middle East. I'd like to think that India could be a decent market as well because I'd imagine that they're going to be looking to replace those Su-30MKI's in the late 2030's or early 2040's but it would mean all the hassle of dealing with the Indian military procurement "system".dmereifield wrote:Sorry, didn't mean to suggest an order pre development, merely that if they were included as partners in the project and that it led to the development of a viable aircraft that between the nations there would be a reasonable sized orderPseudo wrote:I think that the problem with placing an order for an aircraft that doesn't yet exist is that it's all risk and few rewards. There's no guarantee that the project will come to fruition or if it does that it'll meet their requirements. Then what happens if the developer comes to them asking for more money? Finally, even if it does come to fruition and meet their requirements, despite taking those big risks they don't get a share of the profits from their investment.dmereifield wrote:Oh yes, I guess, in theory - though in practice given the politics (and ethics) the UK Government surely wouldn't want to (officially, overtly) partner with SA? Qatar, Oman, Kuwait et al. Is a different matter, and between them, they could provide a large chunk of change and place a sizable order (ca. 60-100 airframes?)Pseudo wrote:Pretty early on in this thread I said that I thought the best development partner for the Uk would be Saudi Arabia because they have a lot of money and little relevant expertise so it would be as close as the UK could get to someone handing them a big bag of money and telling them to get on with it.
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
Not sure what a "faff" is but my guess is their aspirations are not too dissimilar from the UK's.Roders96 wrote:Their indigenous content aspirations are a massive faff, that's for sure.
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
'Faff' is short for 'faffle', to stutter, to stop and start. To 'faff around' (or 'faff about') implies doing something in an inefficient time-wasting manner.Ron5 wrote:Not sure what a "faff" is
A bit like the Type 31 frigate project...
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.c ... 3f9add107a
Sweden’s leading defence contractor will this week announce plans to invest an initial £50m in the UK to develop technology for future combat air systems.
Saab’s investment comes as Ben Wallace, defence secretary, is expected on Monday to announce commitments from UK-based companies to be suppliers to Tempest. These include GKN, Thales UK, Qinetiq, Martin-Baker and others.
The next-generation fighter programme will be in the spotlight this week, at the start of Farnborough Connect, a week-long series of online talks and seminars replacing the Farnborough air show, which was cancelled as a result of the coronavirus pandemic.
Micael Johansson, Saab’s chief executive, said his company intended to set up a research centre in the UK to be close to BAE Systems’ Tempest teams, which are based in Lancashire. The investment was proof of his company’s commitment to the UK and the programme, he stressed.
“Combat air capability is extremely important for us and a security interest for Sweden,” he said. “This is absolutely a sign that it is critically important to us to be part of this combat air development. It is a sign of how important the UK is to us.”
Sweden’s leading defence contractor will this week announce plans to invest an initial £50m in the UK to develop technology for future combat air systems.
Saab’s investment comes as Ben Wallace, defence secretary, is expected on Monday to announce commitments from UK-based companies to be suppliers to Tempest. These include GKN, Thales UK, Qinetiq, Martin-Baker and others.
The next-generation fighter programme will be in the spotlight this week, at the start of Farnborough Connect, a week-long series of online talks and seminars replacing the Farnborough air show, which was cancelled as a result of the coronavirus pandemic.
Micael Johansson, Saab’s chief executive, said his company intended to set up a research centre in the UK to be close to BAE Systems’ Tempest teams, which are based in Lancashire. The investment was proof of his company’s commitment to the UK and the programme, he stressed.
“Combat air capability is extremely important for us and a security interest for Sweden,” he said. “This is absolutely a sign that it is critically important to us to be part of this combat air development. It is a sign of how important the UK is to us.”
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The Armchair Soldier
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
Saab Opens a Centre in the UK for Future Combat Air
Read More: https://saabgroup.com/media/news-press/ ... ombat-air/Saab is to create a new FCAS centre in the United Kingdom as a hub for our participation in the FCAS (Future Combat Air Systems) programme. Saab is committed to build a long term relationship with the UK related to FCAS by investing initially 50 MGBP. The UK and Sweden signed a MoU (https://saabgroup.com/media/news-press/ ... ouncement/) on FCAS co-operation in July 2019. Saab is leading Sweden’s FCAS industrial participation in close co-operation with Sweden’s Ministry of Defence.
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dmereifield
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
Small potatoes, but a very promising development nonetheless
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
https://www.baesystems.com/en/article/f ... oss-the-uk
The companies involved include Bombardier Belfast, Collins Aerospace in the UK, GE Aviation UK, GKN Aerospace, Martin-Baker, QinetiQ, and Thales UK. This is the first phase of organisations to sign such agreements, with more to be announced.
The announcement represents a significant step forward by bringing additional expertise into the Team Tempest project. Team Tempest is a collaboration between BAE Systems, Leonardo UK, MBDA UK, Rolls-Royce and the UK Ministry of Defence, working together to develop game-changing technologies at pace and in an affordable manner.
Dave Holmes, Manufacturing Director for BAE Systems’ Air sector, said: “We are delighted to have signed the first phase of these new agreements, which are transforming our traditional relationships with partners. We are seeking opportunities to widen the Team Tempest project and bring in the very best of UK capability and expertise, from both inside and outside of defence. They will work alongside us as we seek to develop the generation-defining combat air capability which will help safeguard the security of our nation and our allies to the end of this century.
“In addition, by developing the wider industry team, we will help contribute to the retention, growth and investment in a wider world-class UK skills base. Collaborations, with some of the brightest and best across the country, show that Tempest is becoming a truly national endeavour and we are delivering on our promise to take new approaches to drive significant pace and efficiency into the programme.”
The companies involved include Bombardier Belfast, Collins Aerospace in the UK, GE Aviation UK, GKN Aerospace, Martin-Baker, QinetiQ, and Thales UK. This is the first phase of organisations to sign such agreements, with more to be announced.
The announcement represents a significant step forward by bringing additional expertise into the Team Tempest project. Team Tempest is a collaboration between BAE Systems, Leonardo UK, MBDA UK, Rolls-Royce and the UK Ministry of Defence, working together to develop game-changing technologies at pace and in an affordable manner.
Dave Holmes, Manufacturing Director for BAE Systems’ Air sector, said: “We are delighted to have signed the first phase of these new agreements, which are transforming our traditional relationships with partners. We are seeking opportunities to widen the Team Tempest project and bring in the very best of UK capability and expertise, from both inside and outside of defence. They will work alongside us as we seek to develop the generation-defining combat air capability which will help safeguard the security of our nation and our allies to the end of this century.
“In addition, by developing the wider industry team, we will help contribute to the retention, growth and investment in a wider world-class UK skills base. Collaborations, with some of the brightest and best across the country, show that Tempest is becoming a truly national endeavour and we are delivering on our promise to take new approaches to drive significant pace and efficiency into the programme.”
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shark bait
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
Is there a look yet? These are just from the marketing department right?
@LandSharkUK
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
Correctshark bait wrote:Is there a look yet? These are just from the marketing department right?
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
Thanks Bob, nice go get 'em article but it will be the software that makes or breaks. Tim doesn't understand that. He's not alone.bobp wrote:Article by Tim Robinson regarding Tempest
https://www.aerosociety.com/news/tempest-fugit/
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
Very much agree software is the keyRon5 wrote:Thanks Bob, nice go get 'em article but it will be the software that makes or breaks. Tim doesn't understand that. He's not alone.
https://davidlearmount.wordpress.com/20 ... 3b7d769a65
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
Something that Tim's digital prototyping will not help one iota. I see he also hypes or repeats the hype of someone else, the merits of parallel development and test. Aren't a lot of folks slamming that part of F-35 development?bobp wrote:Very much agree software is the keyRon5 wrote:Thanks Bob, nice go get 'em article but it will be the software that makes or breaks. Tim doesn't understand that. He's not alone.
https://davidlearmount.wordpress.com/20 ... 3b7d769a65
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
Yes they are, but also the concurrency factor, making early versions needing major work to get them to Block 4 standard. However there is no denying the F35 sets the standard.Ron5 wrote:Aren't a lot of folks slamming that part of F-35 development?
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
I am impressed by how much work is being done to change how the programme will be managed etc. compared to previous ones. If it works it would be very useful in other programmes for platforms in all domains from the T-45 replacement to new ground vehicles and so on. fingers crossed.
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
Farnborough 2020
Why Tempest might need more international partnerships
Garrett Reim By Garrett Reim21 July 2020
Without a defence budget large enough to self-finance development of its next-generation fighter, the BAE Systems Tempest, the UK will have to forge partnerships with foreign countries to help shoulder the cost.
While it might have made financial sense for London to partner with the Franco-German Future Combat Air System (FCAS) project, led by Dassault Aviation and Airbus, politics have made that increasingly unlikely, aerospace industry experts said during a FlightGlobal webinar staged in conjunction with FIA Connect on 21 July.
“When the UK decided to Brexit, they made it very clear [that] we are on our own now,” says Robin Southwell, former chief executive of Airbus UK. Moreover, agreeing on leadership of such prestigious projects can be politically fraught. “It’s very difficult for France and the UK to come together, because both countries want to be in charge and it is very difficult to unwind that,” he says.
Besides, the industry consolidation required to support one European fighter programme would be unacceptable to many countries, which want to maintain national champions, jobs and intellectual property, says Douglas Barrie, senior fellow for military aerospace with the International Institute for Strategic Studies.
“If the answer is [that] you can only have one programme, the problem at the European level – and I include the UK in Europe – is that half of the sector loses out. For those countries that lose out, it is very, very damaging,” he says. “And you’ve got to remember, there is a terribly strong national element in all of this.”
As a result, expect the cost of the two European next-generation fighters to be higher than if there was just a single programme.
“You can have two programmes. It just means it will be much more expensive,” says Southwell. “Programmes of this nature, the non-recurring [expenses] – or investment in development and design – is the significant element of the cost of the programme.”
As a result, the UK needs to search abroad for development partners and customers to help share the cost. So far, Team Tempest has grown to include Sweden’s Saab and Italy’s Leonardo. However, London seems to have an appetite for additional partners.
The UK’s other natural military partner is the USA.
“The States would clearly accommodate us to be more engaged in their programmes,” says Southwell. “Although, as a German colleague in Airbus once said to me: ‘We always end up making the rear-toilet doors’. We must be aware of the degree of noble work that would be associated with that.”
The UK has other options besides the USA, says Richard Aboulafia, vice-president of analysis with Teal Group.
“There are a number of markets that want indigenous fighter development with a high degree of technology transfer and co-operation,” he says. “In Britain’s case, they are always going to be very closely aligned with Saudi Arabia, which has very limited capabilities in terms of combat aircraft participation, except in the all-important field of money.”
That could result in some sort of limited final assembly and check-out (FACO) facility in Saudi Arabia, says Aboulafia.
The other interesting international partner for the Tempest programme is Japan. However, Tokyo’s Future Fighter plans are difficult to determine.
“What is interesting is the Japanese have decided to not keep going with a [Lockheed Martin] F-35 FACO in-country,” says Aboulafia. “That means they are either keeping their powder dry for presumably a Mitsubishi programme that could involve any number of people, or it could mean they are abandoning the concept of fighter sovereignty, and they just haven’t been able to come out and say that yet because, of course, it would annoy a lot of people in industry and the [Japan Air Self-Defence Force].”
Outside Saudi Arabia and Japan, Southwell says the UK’s relationships with Australia, Canada or India could be possibly parlayed into a next-generation fighter partnership.
Ultimately, whatever the shape of the outer mold line of the Tempest, the UK may be able to partner to share subsystems with other nations’ next-generation fighters, says Claude Alber, Collins Aerospace’s vice-president of Europe for customer and account management.
”Through industrial or national bilateral arrangement there could be cooperation in certain technology areas allowing for the differences in [concept of operations] on one side, but also allowing economic benefits to the development cost,” he says. “This is a system of systems, so there are a lot of areas where technology collaboration could take place.”
Why Tempest might need more international partnerships
Garrett Reim By Garrett Reim21 July 2020
Without a defence budget large enough to self-finance development of its next-generation fighter, the BAE Systems Tempest, the UK will have to forge partnerships with foreign countries to help shoulder the cost.
While it might have made financial sense for London to partner with the Franco-German Future Combat Air System (FCAS) project, led by Dassault Aviation and Airbus, politics have made that increasingly unlikely, aerospace industry experts said during a FlightGlobal webinar staged in conjunction with FIA Connect on 21 July.
“When the UK decided to Brexit, they made it very clear [that] we are on our own now,” says Robin Southwell, former chief executive of Airbus UK. Moreover, agreeing on leadership of such prestigious projects can be politically fraught. “It’s very difficult for France and the UK to come together, because both countries want to be in charge and it is very difficult to unwind that,” he says.
Besides, the industry consolidation required to support one European fighter programme would be unacceptable to many countries, which want to maintain national champions, jobs and intellectual property, says Douglas Barrie, senior fellow for military aerospace with the International Institute for Strategic Studies.
“If the answer is [that] you can only have one programme, the problem at the European level – and I include the UK in Europe – is that half of the sector loses out. For those countries that lose out, it is very, very damaging,” he says. “And you’ve got to remember, there is a terribly strong national element in all of this.”
As a result, expect the cost of the two European next-generation fighters to be higher than if there was just a single programme.
“You can have two programmes. It just means it will be much more expensive,” says Southwell. “Programmes of this nature, the non-recurring [expenses] – or investment in development and design – is the significant element of the cost of the programme.”
As a result, the UK needs to search abroad for development partners and customers to help share the cost. So far, Team Tempest has grown to include Sweden’s Saab and Italy’s Leonardo. However, London seems to have an appetite for additional partners.
The UK’s other natural military partner is the USA.
“The States would clearly accommodate us to be more engaged in their programmes,” says Southwell. “Although, as a German colleague in Airbus once said to me: ‘We always end up making the rear-toilet doors’. We must be aware of the degree of noble work that would be associated with that.”
The UK has other options besides the USA, says Richard Aboulafia, vice-president of analysis with Teal Group.
“There are a number of markets that want indigenous fighter development with a high degree of technology transfer and co-operation,” he says. “In Britain’s case, they are always going to be very closely aligned with Saudi Arabia, which has very limited capabilities in terms of combat aircraft participation, except in the all-important field of money.”
That could result in some sort of limited final assembly and check-out (FACO) facility in Saudi Arabia, says Aboulafia.
The other interesting international partner for the Tempest programme is Japan. However, Tokyo’s Future Fighter plans are difficult to determine.
“What is interesting is the Japanese have decided to not keep going with a [Lockheed Martin] F-35 FACO in-country,” says Aboulafia. “That means they are either keeping their powder dry for presumably a Mitsubishi programme that could involve any number of people, or it could mean they are abandoning the concept of fighter sovereignty, and they just haven’t been able to come out and say that yet because, of course, it would annoy a lot of people in industry and the [Japan Air Self-Defence Force].”
Outside Saudi Arabia and Japan, Southwell says the UK’s relationships with Australia, Canada or India could be possibly parlayed into a next-generation fighter partnership.
Ultimately, whatever the shape of the outer mold line of the Tempest, the UK may be able to partner to share subsystems with other nations’ next-generation fighters, says Claude Alber, Collins Aerospace’s vice-president of Europe for customer and account management.
”Through industrial or national bilateral arrangement there could be cooperation in certain technology areas allowing for the differences in [concept of operations] on one side, but also allowing economic benefits to the development cost,” he says. “This is a system of systems, so there are a lot of areas where technology collaboration could take place.”
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
Amen broinch wrote:Just as long as not with France Ron5 cool
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
When do we get a Tempest/London Buses/Houses of Parliament comparison video?!
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
Supersonic tennis balls.SKB wrote:When do we get a Tempest/London Buses/Houses of Parliament comparison video?!
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
When the government has the swingers to commit to a production contract.SKB wrote:When do we get a Tempest/London Buses/Houses of Parliament comparison video?!