Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

[RetroSicotte]

Gets worse: "The Combat Air Strategy will include investments to upgrade the Typhoon, as well as beginning the programme to deliver the 'Tempest' - a possible successor to the Typhoon, with 2035 the target for operational capability"

So the 200 mill a year has to build a brand new Tempest aircraft as well as upgrading Typhoon.

Combat Air Strategy is a different thing from FCAS. It's purely FCAS that gets the money, Typhoon has its own separate funding under CAS (unfortunate acronym).

I think you may be jumping the gun on this a little. Almost every project like this ramps spending over time as the process grows from its beginnings, which is where it is right now. Also bear in mind that much of what is involved in it will be using already paid for technologies shown on things like Taranis, gained from work on the F-35, or worked on in the past like Replica. Hell it seems pretty implied it's going to use a development of the E-Scan and EJ-200 as well, so there's headstart on them too.

This is only the initial funding to get the ball rolling.

[Halidon]

With the most respect, Ron, I think you're overreacting a bit. Yes the timing and presentation were definitely done with more than one eye to countering the disastrous Brexit issues May's government is dealing with. There's no small amount of "see what marvelous things we can do without the EU!" being heavily implied. But, given the confines of the UK's funding and development environments, the program overall seems to fit squarely into the realm of the reasonable. Yes they're hyping, yes they're fishing for a development partner, and yes it's a long timetable. But it doesn't come across to me as a scam, or fake.

[serge750]

didn't the EAP take 15yrs+ to evolve into the typhoon? first flight of X35 2000 to f35 inservice 2017? does seem like big programs take along time 2018 - maybe to early to mid 30's seems plausible....but as said a lot of it will be look no EU spin...bloody hate spin !!!
Don't think it will be cheap though...

[Ron5]

Combat Air Strategy is a different thing from FCAS. It's purely FCAS that gets the money, Typhoon has its own separate funding under CAS (unfortunate acronym).

You are incorrect. The 2 billion has to cover Tempest and upgrade the Typhoons. There is no separate money for Typhoon upgrades.

[Ron5]

With the most respect, Ron, I think you're overreacting a bit.

All in the eye of the beholder.

My eye saw a couple of politicians clearly stating this was the birth of a new fighter when in fact, it was just a tiny amount of seed money for new technologies that was a) going to be shared with the Typhoon program, b) announced in 2015 and c) was definitely not to fund a new fighter design.

I predict that we'll see a few debunking articles appear in the technical press that declare the nakedness of the new Emperor Tempest.

[Little J]

Just watched this, seems to be pointing out what's being discussed here.

[RetroSicotte]

There is no separate money for Typhoon upgrades.

Given Typhoon's already been going through its upgrades right now before this money in its assignment even was a thing, I find that to be definitely untrue.

At most the money in the Tempest area will be referring to testing specific tech on specific Typhoons. Not on fleetwide upgrades.

[jedibeeftrix]

with all this talk of phantom budgets; am i correct in thinking that the SDSR10 decision to swap to F35C 'justified' HMG in eating the original FOAS budget.... which was never returned when we swapped back to F35B?

[sunstersun]

For this to succeed it needs a major European partner (Italy preferred) as well as an Asian partner (Japan preferred)

[Ron5]

There is no separate money for Typhoon upgrades.

Given Typhoon's already been going through its upgrades right now before this money in its assignment even was a thing, I find that to be definitely untrue.

At most the money in the Tempest area will be referring to testing specific tech on specific Typhoons. Not on fleetwide upgrades.

Be nice if you were to get some facts rather than just guessing.

Don't get me wrong, I hope you are correct but with the UK's shower of politicians, I wouldn't bet on it.

[Timmymagic]

Yes the timing and presentation were definitely done with more than one eye to countering the disastrous Brexit issues May's government is dealing with.

To be fair Farnborough only comes around every 2 years..

[cky7]

Dunno, Ron’s points do have me worried, where will the massive amounts of money it would take to turn this from a concept study into an actual aircraft come from without a big increase in budget? I thought there was no spare cash till well into the 2030s and then we got trident missile replacement to pay for too? How many times have the current bunch in the MOD tried to spin nothing things into sounding like something amazing and announced the same but if funding ten times over - we’ve got an increasing budget and cutting edge capabilities being developed after all?

I really hope this is the start of 21st century EAP and onto Anglo Japanese/Italian/whoever 6th generation fighter but recent history has me worried:( come on Gavin prove me wrong - please!

[RetroSicotte]

Be nice if you were to get some facts rather than just guessing.

Don't get me wrong, I hope you are correct but with the UK's shower of politicians, I wouldn't bet on it.

Believe me, I'm not discounting your points either. I'm a firm believer that the truth usually lies between two points, after all.

[Meriv9]

I really hope this is the start of 21st century EAP and onto Anglo Japanese/Italian/whoever 6th generation fighter but recent history has me worried:( come on Gavin prove me wrong - please!

What other option do we have? Aren't we in a race with the French(because Germans if they survive the team are just putting money in it )?

A race started by them by excluding both of us? That if we want to enter the consortium it will be French lead...

I would have understood if it was like the F-35 with the US ordering thousand of them not a peer number of machines like Paris would ask us.

Is there enough space for two 6th European fighters? If yes it is barely enough and surely there wont be for the 7th generation.

So more than a collaboration i would call it an industrial death race for aerospace defense industry. Funds will have to appear no other option.

[ArmChairCivvy]

more than a collaboration i would call it an industrial death race for aerospace defense industry. Funds will have to appear

Agree. And Dassault has got it licked, as they say
- unmanned with us (if nothing more than to pre-empt and stay a jour with the technology
- manned with the Germans (if nothing more than them funding the programme as the strain on a single nation would be too much)

Go Japan, I say

[ArmChairCivvy]

Go Japan, I say

Oh boy, if this one slips away (from DID of today):
"The government of Japan is in dire need to replace its ageing fleet of F-2 fighters. The country is currently searching for a Japan-led international collaborative development for a new fighter jet. Lockheed Martin already issued a development proposal that is a big favorite. The company would build a high-performance stealth machine integrating F-35 electronics onto a F-22 platform. However, the plane will be more expensive than initially thought thus raising concerns to the program’s cost effectiveness. Lockheed estimates the initial price tag to be around $177 million per plane, essentially making it more expensive than the F-35. Japan will start retiring its fleet of 90 F-2s by 2030. Development of a new plane takes about 10-years therefore the Ministry of Defense intends to specify any concrete development policy by the end of the year."

Even the previous gen (to be replaced) has all this:
"Mitsubishi Electric supplies a locally-designed X-band J/APG-1 AESA fire control radar, and a J/ARG-1 AESA datalink transmitter.

Upgrades are underway.

Mitsubishi’s AAM-4B active-seeker medium range air-to-air missile is being added, along with a radar upgrade to APG-2 status. Together, they’ll give the F-2 the ability to attack multiple aerial opponents from medium range. They’ll also allow the fighters to fire and leave"
... fight far out, and respectively, build the a/c big enough to afford such range

[inch]

think japan more likely to go with trump/usa than a project with uk but who knows ,its more political I think and the risk a lot less going with the usa unfortunately, would have been great to have them partner with uk for next project it would have helped both countries ,I think the uk will end up going with Europe again which is not my first plan and being led by france somewhat the remainers choice to be close to Europe ,ie think there will be a new election and labour will prob get in then they want to be close to Europe brexit in all but name and hence my reason for thinking uk ending up going with Europe for next fighter led by france

[ArmChairCivvy]

labour will prob get in

+

uk ending up going with Europe

= a likelihood of no fighter at all... nevermind, we can always buy some from the US

[Little J]

One possibility that hasn't been mentioned yet... We team up with the yanks. Or are they not interested in the same weight/size class as us?

[Ron5]

Agree. And Dassault has got it licked, as they say
- unmanned with us (if nothing more than to pre-empt and stay a jour with the technology
- manned with the Germans (if nothing more than them funding the programme as the strain on a single nation would be too much)

What unmanned with the UK? That has died with its 2 billion UK budget being redirected to Tempest.

[Ron5]

I really hope this is the start of 21st century EAP and onto Anglo Japanese/Italian/whoever 6th generation fighter but recent history has me worried:( come on Gavin prove me wrong - please!

What other option do we have? Aren't we in a race with the French(because Germans if they survive the team are just putting money in it )?

A race started by them by excluding both of us? That if we want to enter the consortium it will be French lead...

I would have understood if it was like the F-35 with the US ordering thousand of them not a peer number of machines like Paris would ask us.

Is there enough space for two 6th European fighters? If yes it is barely enough and surely there wont be for the 7th generation.

So more than a collaboration i would call it an industrial death race for aerospace defense industry. Funds will have to appear no other option.

One other option is to partner with the US on the USAF 6th gen fighter.

[Ron5]

Go Japan, I say

Oh boy, if this one slips away (from DID of today):
"The government of Japan is in dire need to replace its ageing fleet of F-2 fighters. The country is currently searching for a Japan-led international collaborative development for a new fighter jet. Lockheed Martin already issued a development proposal that is a big favorite. The company would build a high-performance stealth machine integrating F-35 electronics onto a F-22 platform. However, the plane will be more expensive than initially thought thus raising concerns to the program’s cost effectiveness. Lockheed estimates the initial price tag to be around $177 million per plane, essentially making it more expensive than the F-35. Japan will start retiring its fleet of 90 F-2s by 2030. Development of a new plane takes about 10-years therefore the Ministry of Defense intends to specify any concrete development policy by the end of the year."

Even the previous gen (to be replaced) has all this:
"Mitsubishi Electric supplies a locally-designed X-band J/APG-1 AESA fire control radar, and a J/ARG-1 AESA datalink transmitter.

Upgrades are underway.

Mitsubishi’s AAM-4B active-seeker medium range air-to-air missile is being added, along with a radar upgrade to APG-2 status. Together, they’ll give the F-2 the ability to attack multiple aerial opponents from medium range. They’ll also allow the fighters to fire and leave"
... fight far out, and respectively, build the a/c big enough to afford such range

Putting the F-22 back into production is not going to happen. Way too expensive.

[SKB]

(MDx Media) 18th July 2018

Great footage taken by Sergeant Jason Dinsley of the Royal Air Force's sixth generation fighter, Tempest at the The Royal International Air Tattoo. The aircraft was kept under wraps and guarded by personnel from No 1 School of Technical at Royal Air Force Cosford.

(Forces TV) 18th July 2018

In development right now is the future of UK combat air power. No, not the F-35 - the 'Team Tempest' project. It is hoped the concept could be operational by the 2030s.

[Ron5]

Firstly, someone should give that man a better smart phone and secondly, how come nobody mentioned seeing Tempest at RIAT??

[ArmChairCivvy]

(MDx Media) 18th July 2018

Great footage taken by Sergeant Jason Dinsley of the Royal Air Force's sixth generation fighter, Tempest at the The Royal International Air Tattoo. The aircraft was kept under wraps and guarded by personnel from No 1 School of Technical at Royal Air Force Cosford.

Our bubble canopy is bigger: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-MH_je7ByMlU/ ... gm+gps.jpg