Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

[SKB]

No collaborating with the French again please. They'll just walk out during design and development again and do their own version, again....

[Cooper]

Feel sorry for the Germans, the only thing they'll be expected to contribute is the money to pay for France's wish list.

[Timmymagic]

Feel sorry for the Germans, the only thing they'll be expected to contribute is the money to pay for France's wish list.

It's ok, the Germans will shaft them by claiming that they're buying 300...get half the workshare...then cut their buy to 50.

The history of Franco-German co-operation on defence projects is not the greatest to say the least...not many successful projects from that starting point, at least since Alpha Jet and Transall. But they were 50 years ago....

[SKB]

There is another partner option for France and Germany's future plane....

[Halidon]

Very interesting development, it shall be interesting to keep track of. One definitely wonders how much they're pushing for Japan to hop in on this, given recent statements from both. But, however the partnerships shake out, I'll be rooting for a well-run program that successfully produces a good aircraft for (at least) the UK.

No collaborating with the French again please. They'll just walk out during design and development again and do their own version, again....

They probably say the same thing about Frigates.

[~UNiOnJaCk~]

Well, reading defensenews' article on Tempest, it would seem that the programme is surprisingly well advanced even at this stage which is deeply encouraging. As for the design itself, it's extremely unconventional in comparisson to today's aircraft - certainly visually at least. One wonders how representative the mockup is, or will be, of the eventual finished product.

I personally suspect that, like the T26, we will see its form, and possibly even its intended function, change more than once over the next few years - possibly settling on something a little more conventional than what we see here. Personally, i hope that the radical nature of today's mockup is indicative of our ambition and that this is not lost as we go forward. It'd be great if we had another TSR-2 type moment on our hands, but this time around having the courage to see it through to completion!

[-Eddie-]

Front definitely resembles the SR-71/72 style, which is no bad thing. The 'bump' at the back looks off to be honest, but I'm no aerospace engineer

[SKB]

[RetroSicotte]

Front definitely resembles the SR-71/72 style, which is no bad thing. The 'bump' at the back looks off to be honest, but I'm no aerospace engineer

At an uneducated guess, it's due to the thin nature of the plane. It needs to be mounted higher to permit the S-ducts somewhere to go to hide the blades, and possibly to raise them up above the internal bay as well.

[seaspear]

There appears room in the mockup for two crew as an option

[Phil R]

Looking at the payload bay, I keep imagining Lox/LH2 tanks.
Stick a small aerospike in the rear in leiu of the protusion and you could have a modern SR177.
Royal Aerospace Force anyone?



Phil R

[Ron5]

It's all a big con job designed to boost May's lousy image regarding cutting defense:

1. 2 billion was set aside in the 2015 defence review for future aircraft combat systems. (FACS) This is that money. No more has been added even though May is claiming she's making a new investment.

2. FACS contracts awarded to 4 companies in July to develop future technologies that could be used in future aircraft. Announcement made and then pulled but not too late for Janes to publish. We recorded that on this thread. It was called "Contract Tizzard".

3. May's spin doctors get hold of "Contract Tizard" and sexied it up to become (tarrah) Project Tempest. Bae supplies old graphics with new titles and a mockup from their warehouse. See my post from February.

4. The mockup is sooo bare bones. No way to attach the accompanying missiles. No indications of any weapons bays or the detachable pods shown in the graphics. No separate control surfaces. Old cockpit. Borrowed landing gear. It's a hollow fraud.

4. Air Commodore Linc Taylor, the RAF officer responsible for Tempest, said: “What we are delivering is the Tempest technology initiative ready for a next-generation aircraft.”. Note, not a new aircraft, just selected technology for a possible new aircraft.

5. Williamson said “There will be a business case by the end of the year, early decisions on acquisition by the end of 2020 and final investment decisions by 2025,” . Williamson is a big fat liar. No way will the UK make a decision to acquire a new fighter jet by 2020.

6. I've read the new Combat Air Strategy. Has anyone else? It's just a rather small fluff piece that basically says it would be a great idea for the UK to develop a new aircraft. With partners. Woop de doo. Must have been up all night thinking that one out.

[Ron5]

"Analysis - Euro fighters: Technologies and teams coalesce for Europe’s future fighter aircraft
Gareth Jennings, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
06 July 2018

The announcement by the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) on 3 July that it had awarded BAE Systems a 12-month contract to further its work on a future combat air system (FCAS) was the latest in a series of recent commitments made by European governments that are looking to develop the continent’s next-generation of fighter aircraft.

An infographic of Airbus DS' Future Air Power concept, featuring the New Fighter at the centre of the FCAS system-of-systems. (Airbus)

The TIZARD contract, as it is named by the MoD, followed some four months after it was revealed that BAE Systems was one of four UK companies exploring the technologies that will need to be matured in order to field such a futuristic FCAS concept."

The rest was behind a paywall.

From July 7th.

[SKB]

Ron. Its 2018. Its now cheaper to design and build new planes than it used to be.

3D steel printers can "print" complex components with minimal waste and at greater speed, a part can be printed out and fitted to an aircradt in the same day now. In the past, complex parts would have to be made in several pieces and welded, screwed or bolted together to form one part. Not so with 3D printing, as the whole complex part can be printed in one go.

Materials are now also improving. Thanks to the Porton Down labs, there is now a process to make super-strong titanium parts from titanium powder in only 2 steps, whereas before it took 40 steps. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/port ... revolution

[Ron5]

Recent Bae picture of a "future fighter"..

Future Fighter.JPG

From Feb 19th.

[Ron5]

The 2015 UK defence review announced the 2 billion FCAS budget to be spent over 10 years.

So 200 million a year. To develop a gen 6 fighter.

Con job.

[SKB]

[cky7]

ACC - Firstly, apologies for the slow reply. Ive spent the weekend at Fairford airshow and had several interesting discussions there with representatives from various firms involved in this trying to get hints from them as to what will become of FCAS/Tempest. Obviously i imagine anything they told me is nothing overly special - don't imagine they're in the habit of offering anything revelatory to nosey civilians! Lol.

However the general consensus from everyone i spoke to was that there would definitely be something 'new' to replace Typhoon. In fact there seemed to be a lot of pushing this into view from everyone there - which after todays announcement makes sense. I was more than once told to keep an eye on Farnborough today so I'm pretty certain many knew what was coming in fair detail.

Opinions on who we'd work with varied, there was a common consensus we were looking at optionally manned, longer range and much of what we have discussed happily enough

There was even a different concept vision on display at the MBDA stand which i photoed for everyone if you're interested see below...


The guy there told me to take particular note of what wasn't included - vertical tails which is interesting considering the BAE model - i prefer it to BAE's actually. When i asked about it appearing to be single engine he said yes and thats what they'd like but they weren't sure if we'd go that way cos of old fears over relying on just one engine. He didn't seem to think one engine would effect range with future concepts. When i asked about it looking to have some type of TVC he just smiled and said yes!

- yes, don't let the unmanned (momentum) lapse, and yes: do not rely on these COIN constructs in a real war

Definite, like yourself i think even protector which was at Fairford (and i also have lots of pics of - if anyone is interested i thought about setting up a thread with my amateurish shots?!) simply won't cut it in real war and this is something were gonna have to address - anglo french stealthy UCAV here we come

- there is the clear difference. The Japanese want to fight far out, but A2A rather than offensive counter-air (The American 6th gen seems to have the penetrating missions included with high priority... which just shows for how long they think the F-35 will remain as cutting edge).

I know what you mean the bean counters might think we need to fight as far out but for me massively improved range is gonna be something that becomes one of the most important considerations for us too, especially with your point on US feelings on the length of F35 relevance. We have expensive new carriers to protect, F35 will do a lot of the time but maybe not all of it into the further future. Do we know we will always have friendly basing right on the doorstep of where we are gonna fight? A2AD proliferation seems to be a clear trend we are gonna have to face. The Russians are producing longer range and hyper sonic missiles in the future that are gonna make us want to deal with the archer not the arrow IMO. To all these problems big increases in range is one of the best answers and the more i think about the more convinced i am extra range is never gonna be something we will be able to consider superfluous.

Yes OCA is a big focus for us, but the way i see it, its a lot easier to make a top A2G fighter out of an a2a one than the other way round. Look at Typhoon or F15E, both big successes, whereas Tornado F3 for me still a joke for examples. Okay lets not get carried away with just a2a and remember that new techs like high off boresight for example mean a2a needs might be different next generation but making sure you have something with really good energy retention/capable of adding momentum to missiles and capable of flying high and quick ought to remain high priority. The same as us the Japanese wont be looking for a one trick pony and i think they still come closest to our operational requirements and where these don't mesh exactly they don't work against each other and will only improve what we each get from the platform.

the snag is that if we don't achieve that, partners will be in short supply. Korea & Turkey? No good. Sweden: They still have their hands full with their 4+ gen fighter: adding A2G is years away.

Aye, it is a big worry. As i said I think for the we ought to be looking at an F35 type partner arrangement. I guess todays announcement can only be seen as positive from this point of view as it calls the bluff of france and Germany giving us other potential options there. I guess theres also the Americans which putting together something impressive here can only help us eek a better deal from as a junior partner.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Thanks, cky7, for the considered thoughts.

What follows are just a few quick stabs at it:

Front definitely resembles the SR-71/72 style, which is no bad thing. The 'bump' at the back looks off to be honest, but I'm no aerospace engineer

+
At an uneducated guess, it's due to the thin nature of the plane. It needs to be mounted higher to permit the S-ducts somewhere to go to hide the blades, and possibly to raise them up above the internal bay as well.

There are no side shots, but my imagination sees something "Flanker-like" in the shape... which family of a/c does have lots of kudos as for the handling in extreme manoeuvres.

Project Tempest. Bae supplies old graphics with new titles and a mockup from their warehouse.

I agree; the graphics do not quite seem to tally with the mock-up?

[sunstersun]

Okay, A+ to the marketing team. Bloody good job on naming it the Tempest.

Badass and WW2 homage.

[sunstersun]

Here's a decent idea. Make this a pure RAF project at least until an international partner picks up development for the naval side.

Order these fast enough to transfer RAF F-35's to the Navy.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Order these fast enough to transfer RAF F-35's to the Navy.

That's a good point... which gives the project to 2040.

What does the panel think (on the doability with that kind of time frame around the project)?

Been speculating how many "Bs" we will need to order (on the F-35 thread) and of course the stated number has been much an understatement as the carriers will last for longer than those F-35B airframes that we are right now taking delivery of
- to give credit to our £ 9.2 bn (+) investment, name another 5th gen carrier a/c
- meaning that with the in-built upgradeability of the JSF, some version is likely to "go all the way" and we won't be needing to change horses in the middle of the race

[ArmChairCivvy]

IF there is any funding, depending on the Swedish
" general election in September before outlining further plans. At that point, government and armed forces studies along with the Defence Commission Release Report on 2035 and beyond will be published"
then we will get to read about their thoughts on partnering (Re: what will be there after Gripen E) in about a qrtr of a year.
- Shephard had picked this up from Maj Gen Mats Helgesson, chief of Swedish Air Force, speaking to delegates at a pre-Farnborough briefing

[ArmChairCivvy]

History seems to repeat itself:
" in World War II, the Typhoon and Tempest series of fighters have passed largely unsung. This book sets out to rectify that omission, plotting the course, with all its many disappointments, of the inspired Sydney Camm design which started off just before the war as the Tornado and finished up after hostilities as the Fury, the fastest prop-powered fighter in the world. The early days of Typhoon development were trying ones for all concerned "

So now we also know what will come after Tempest (or out of the project). Feeling tempted (but the 1974 book is in hardcover, so no good for trips)... and the link to Amazon is playing up - don't want to advertise, anyway.

[Ron5]

The 2015 UK defence review announced the 2 billion FCAS budget to be spent over 10 years.

So 200 million a year. To develop a gen 6 fighter.

Con job.

Gets worse: "The Combat Air Strategy will include investments to upgrade the Typhoon, as well as beginning the programme to deliver the 'Tempest' - a possible successor to the Typhoon, with 2035 the target for operational capability"

So the 200 mill a year has to build a brand new Tempest aircraft as well as upgrading Typhoon. Typhoon upgrades have been identified as 15% more powerful engines, RCS improvements, improved connectivity & upgraded cockpit.

In reference: the USAF will be spending $10 billion over the next 5 years on their 6th gen fighter. Upgrading the F-22 is in a different budget.

Tempest is a big con job. From the avowed Brexit leaver Williamson who supports May's Brexit plan 100%. And May, of course.