Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
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Jensy
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Jensy »

Trouble in SCAF land....

From this week's 'La Tribune':
SCAF: "not signing an agreement is much better than signing a bad agreement"
Link (FR): https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-fi ... 77256.html

Afraid I can't read the entire article as it's behind a very rigorous pay wall. However the abstract and first paragraph odd seem pretty damming (questionable translation aside). It would appear that nationalism and protectionism are once again impeding a 'euro-fighter':
The Germans succeeded in sowing discord in the French camp over the SCAF file by wanting to renegotiate certain agreements already accepted by the German side. Between French politicians and industrialists, a dividing line is being created.

The entire French armaments industrial ecosystem is against the new German claims on the SCAF (Air Combat System of the Future), on the MGCS (Main Ground Combat System) and, finally, on the Tiger Mark 3. " It is better not to sign an agreement at all than to sign a bad agreement, ” sums up an industrialist. And above all, all light candles so that the State does not give in to the desire to sign an agreement out of pure romanticism to make history. "The latest discussions at the Franco-German defense and security committee between France and Germany are not going in the right directions ", believes the president of the Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee of the Senate, Christian Cambon. All eyes are therefore now on Dassault Aviation, considered today as the last bulwark of the German ukases [edicts/decrees] on the SCAF .

Dassault Aviation, the last bulwark
The tricolor aircraft manufacturer, which they say is extremely combative, does not want to give in to German demands and remains impervious to political pressure......
Follows on from another piece on Saturday (FR):
https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-fi ... 77058.html
Germany, the temptation of the heist of the century on the SCAF

Germany is putting maximum pressure on French manufacturers to make concessions on the SCAF program. A game of arm wrestling that will be played out in the next fortnight.

Clearly, Germany is never satisfied. Berlin, which had signed agreements with Paris in October 2019 on the distribution of tasks and leadership on the SCAF (Air Combat System of the Future) program, wants more, always more. "The Germans play on all registers to obtain additional gains on this program" , explains one to La Tribune. German Chancellor Angela Merkel also clearly supported the demands of German industrialists, in particular Airbus, at the end of the Franco-German defense and security council on Friday. For more than a month, the situation has been explosive between Airbus and Dassault Aviation, the two industrial leaders of the program, while the contract for phase 1B of SCAF, which aims to build demonstrators - a budget of more than 6 billion euros - is being negotiated fiercely within a very tight schedule.

"We have reopened the subject of the distribution and the continuation of the work a little bit. (...) It is a project, which is under French leadership, but the German partners must nevertheless be able to be at a level satisfactory vis-à-vis their partners (French, editor's note). And therefore, we must see precisely the questions of intellectual property, task-sharing and sharing ...
I wonder if we could poach the Spanish for Tempest, whilst the other two fight....

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Cooper
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Cooper »

I wonder if the French will ever take a step back and realise that they themselves are the common problem whenever these multi-national defence projects start to run in to trouble. :roll:

Don't get me wrong, they will patch up their differences because this is primarily all about the politics, not the needs of the military and a pan European project seen to fall apart so soon after Brexit, cannot and will not be allowed to happen. But France & Germany...they're welcome to each other.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

Cooper wrote:I wonder if the French will ever take a step back and realise that they themselves are the common problem whenever these multi-national defence projects start to run in to trouble. :roll:

Don't get me wrong, they will patch up their differences because this is primarily all about the politics, not the needs of the military and a pan European project seen to fall apart so soon after Brexit, cannot and will not be allowed to happen. But France & Germany...they're welcome to each other.
The German side probably sees it within the context of a portfolio of projects including MGCS, there are a lot more Leo2 operators than LeClerc Customers. There's too much riding on it politically to fail, I bet on the French compromising

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SD67 wrote:within the context of a portfolio of projects including MGCS, there are a lot more Leo2 operators than LeClerc Customers. There's too much riding on it politically to fail, I bet on the French compromising
Yes, the reporting had clearly been driven by (briefing from) Dassault (industrialists vs politicians :ugeek: ) and thus did not even mention the next biggest land project, namely the future field artillery - where the French have been given the lead
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Timmymagic »

Some more detail...looks like the German's under Airbus pressure are wanting to build an FCAS demonstrator using Typhoon, whilst the French build a Rafale based one. Can perfectly understand why as it appears that the penny has dropped with Airbus that if they don't they may well lose the ability to do so in the future...

Can see this one running and running...


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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SW1 »

Which is I think not as big a deal as some may think. Focusing international partnership on the development of common and scalable subsystems, weapons, mission systems and cockpits while major countries integrate said into a airframe that suits their countries needs. It’s the Single biggest lesson governments should of taken from the f35 program or from most major commercial aircraft programs.

Though I will say this, the program with the biggest potiential for changing completely the dynamic of airforces and export i the uk has already progressed with lanca.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SW1 wrote:while major countries integrate said into a airframe that suits their countries needs.
We might well see Tempest 'brushing up' Tiffies and Gripens (the airframe has already grown substantially)
... and that could be it

Or, after all these upgrades and prolonging the existing fleets, we might see spiral development, with a new airframe included
- this sort of intertwines with the seven priorities on the IR thread, none of which stand on their own but might lead us to seven wisdoms
... and, finally :) , spiral development approach could end up as one of the seven habits that make military procurement more productive and less short-lived (including all the cancelled projects with 'zero' service years)

One of the dangers is that the Judo-Christian 777 could be 'upped' by 888, from further (much further) East... as we are in this for the long run (the other project for 'longue duree')
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

One thing is not going to change - the Typhoon has a finite airframe life. The RAF work their platforms hard and Composites are not easy to life-extend. They're taking a system of systems approach, once the systems are de risked they build the demonstrator platform around it, probably about 2030, on track for a 2035 production start.

Personally I think the Franco/German approach of "get something in the air now" is more about PR and politics

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Agree with both points; was just "future proofing" for the scenario that Tempest will not get enough funds allocated
... build more Tiffies (like the Germans just decided to do, to bridge the gap)

As for the competing project, it is now going to be three :!: prototypes; The Spanish will also get to build one.
- more like to make it look less of a Franco-German stand-off :?:
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by TheLoneRanger »

To see the French and Germans squabble brings a nice smile and a warm inner feeling on a cold cold saturday morning for me.

Both the French and the Germans are as bad as each other when it comes to military-industrial collaboration projects, and they both DESERVE each other after the Typhoon fisaco which was at the hands of both the French and the Germans aswell.

As longs as they both the French and Germans are kept away from the Tempest Programme after the EU FCAS programme falls apart, we are all good.

It is obvious that Airbus and Dassault are both playing for keeps, that much is for sure, and I can say, is "Fight, fight, fight !!!" and enjoy the show over the next few months and years. This will just run and run for sure.

Keep it coming people!!!!!

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Lord Jim »

Logically Dassault should be merged with Airbus to form a single entity to develop future european aviation projects, but French national pride will never allow that.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Lord Jim wrote:Logically Dassault should be merged with Airbus to form a single entity to develop future european aviation projects, but French national pride will never allow that.


There would have to be some pretty strong Chinese walls put in place. Airbus has manufacturing sites in China, and big sales Russia

Marcel Dassault's stint in Buchenwald probably doesn't help either.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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"Airbus shares its expertise with Russian industry and institutions through partnerships, joint ventures and spin-off companies. Coordinated through links with the Moscow region’s Skolkovo high-tech hub, Airbus has developed key pillars for its ongoing research and technology operations in Russia: simulation and modelling, propulsion, materials development, energy storage and management, telecommunications and in-depth research."

https://www.airbus.com/company/worldwid ... ussia.html

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Lord Jim »

Well that certainly rules out any technical help or components from the US meaning everything will have to be designed and built by the partnership. We on the other hand can probably shop in the US if we needed to but that may impose export limitation that we do not want.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SW1 »

https://www.boeing.ru/

What’s your point?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Jensy »

Lord Jim wrote:Well that certainly rules out any technical help or components from the US meaning everything will have to be designed and built by the partnership. We on the other hand can probably shop in the US if we needed to but that may impose export limitation that we do not want.
Airbus Helicopters successfully sells military and dual use platforms to the US, China and Russia. Indeed they have production lines in all three.

Single sourcing from the US has its constraints as you are beholden to their export licenses and policies, which have a history of being used for industrial as well as security purposes.

With the contractions in civil aerospace, Airbus will be keen to beef up their defence business. Dassault is a very rare breed of national champion, they don't usually have to share and when they do it's very much on their terms. Still they're far more developed in combat aircraft design than Airbus and I'd argue deserve to be the prime, irrespective of who's picking up the bills.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/japan ... t-systems/

A surprising defence-technology partnership is emerging between Japan and the UK. The cooperation is mostly preliminary but not at all basic: the two countries are working together on some of the most challenging systems used in combat aircraft. And there’s good reason to think they’ll pool resources on more such programs.

For Japan, the UK is an obvious high-capability partner for technology areas in which the US will not share its knowhow. The British no doubt see Japan as an alternative to France and Germany for sharing development costs, especially in the combat-aircraft field. Here and there, we also see signs that Japan has technology that the British would regard as valuable.

This development should be welcomed by anyone who wants to see a stronger Japan, one that gets more capability from its defence budget.

On 2 February, the UK and Japanese governments made what appears to have been their first mention of an ambitious potential joint project that Tokyo had briefly discussed in Japanese text in 2018. Called ‘Jaguar’, it’s officially said to be a universal radio-frequency (RF) system. It would presumably be intended for the Japanese F-X and UK-led Tempest fighter programs.

Separately, Japan revealed in September that it and the UK had been working together on a powerful radar technology; we can assume this would be integral to Jaguar. The UK and Japan are also cooperating on developing an advanced version of a far-flying air-to-air missile. And Rolls-Royce has proposed cooperative development of a single engine type for the F-X and Tempest programs, which are running on somewhat parallel timescales.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SW1 wrote: And Rolls-Royce has proposed cooperative development of a single engine type for the F-X and Tempest programs, which are running on somewhat parallel timescales.
Surprised at this comment as it would appear from the May 2019 video that the Japanese XF9-1 15 tonnes/33,000 lbs jet at an advanced stage and undergoing full test trials, whereas the new RR jet for the Tempest is only at paper/digital stage and running on totally different timescale ?



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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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NickC wrote:
SW1 wrote: And Rolls-Royce has proposed cooperative development of a single engine type for the F-X and Tempest programs, which are running on somewhat parallel timescales.
Surprised at this comment as it would appear from the May 2019 video that the Japanese XF9-1 15 tonnes/33,000 lbs jet at an advanced stage and undergoing full test trials, whereas the new RR jet for the Tempest is only at paper/digital stage and running on totally different timescale ?



Pronouncement of where U.K. power plant dev is may not be entirely accurate

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SW1 wrote:Called ‘Jaguar’, it’s officially said to be a universal radio-frequency (RF) system. It would presumably be intended for the Japanese F-X and UK-led Tempest fighter programs.

Separately, Japan revealed in September that it and the UK had been working together on a powerful radar technology;
Jaguar (RF) could easily be another MADL
- we are not getting it from the US, though a GW for use on 4th gen fighters has been tested
- Sweden claims they have built their own (who knows how close that comes... otherwise we could buy it OTS ;) )
SW1 wrote:
For Japan, the UK is an obvious high-capability partner for technology areas in which the US will not share its knowhow. The British no doubt see Japan as an alternative to France and Germany for sharing development costs, especially in the combat-aircraft field.
Although our aerospace sector is punching above the weight of our general R&D share/ ranking in the global tables, surely we will pick any further partners from amongst those above our line in the below:
#1 United States $476.5 billion 26.4%
#2 China $370.6 billion 20.6%
#3 Japan $170.5 billion 9.5% (6.1+3.4... by coincidence)
#4 Germany $109.8 billion 6.1%
#5 South Korea $73.2 billion 4.1%
#6 France $60.8 billion 3.4%
#7 India $48.1 billion 2.7%
#8 United Kingdom $44.2 billion 2.5%
#9 Brazil $42.1 billion 2.3%
#10 Russia $39.8 billion 2.2%
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Lord Jim »

Is that Governmental R&D, Industrial in house R&D or a combination of both above?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

All of it lumped together.

Like I mentioned, if you look sector-wise, e.g. aerospace only, then we would move up
- the counter to that is that RF-related R&D (again as an example only) is not confined to the aerospace sector alone

So any slicing & dicing is bound to miss something (especially as a lot of the Russian stuff is secret and for much of China's the classification is "civilian" though the projects are centrally funded and directed).


EDIT: looked at the small print, and the figures have been adjusted for how much money buys you in-country " data from the UNESCO Institute for Statistics adjusted for purchasing-power parity (PPP)".
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Ares »

SW1 wrote:
NickC wrote:
SW1 wrote: And Rolls-Royce has proposed cooperative development of a single engine type for the F-X and Tempest programs, which are running on somewhat parallel timescales.
Surprised at this comment as it would appear from the May 2019 video that the Japanese XF9-1 15 tonnes/33,000 lbs jet at an advanced stage and undergoing full test trials, whereas the new RR jet for the Tempest is only at paper/digital stage and running on totally different timescale ?

Pronouncement of where U.K. power plant dev is may not be entirely accurate
I already posted about it last year.
viewtopic.php?f=43&t=760&p=109639&hilit ... ce#p109639
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/thread ... ost-423449

Japan's ATLA is currently working on further R&D to improve the serviceability and performance and apply adaptive cycle for the XF9-1 engine. Rolls-Royce can provide know-how, Japan can provide advanced heat-resistant materials, share some designs and parts, and jointly develop some new technologies.

And since Tempest and F-X(Japan) have the same schedule of starting operation in 2035, I think the development periods can be overlap.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germ ... SKBN2AH2I8

Before moving ahead, Germany aims to gain concessions from France, insiders said, adding Berlin would like to be able to use technologies co-developed with Paris for its own projects.

One French source said Germany also wanted access to know-how developed purely in France. A German source denied this.

Disagreements run so deep that there are proposals to build two demonstrators instead of one, two sources told Reuters. Each would likely highlight different aspects of the FCAS project, which is designed to combine manned and unmanned warplanes.

A senior French parliamentarian expressed doubts about the project’s viability, citing political constraints including Berlin’s refusal to participate in combat operations abroad.

“To be honest, it would be a lot easier for us to work with Britain because we share the same military culture,” the French politician said. Britain is running its own BAE Systems -backed fighter programme, Tempest, with Italy and Sweden.

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