Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
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Pseudo
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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dmereifield wrote:Post Brexit, wouldnt we need another 2 nations besides Italy to make it 3 European nations? Or is the UK still eligible?
Sweden is a member of the EU. ;)
inch wrote:A hard choice that for Poland ,it's a political at the end of the day ,stay with france/Germany euro project or go with the naughty British brexitters and upset the French / Germans ,I can't call it tbh both got their merrits for Poland . suppose its just how much the EU machine leans on Poland not to break away
Does Poland have any experience in developing high-end combat aircraft or any other area that might be useful? If not then the benefits for the project don't seem to be that great. You might as well try and get the Saudi's onboard who have enough money to make PESCO funding unnecessary. Though if you're desperate for another EU member state then what about the Netherlands? They've got a better technological base than Poland and have a similar GDP (PPP).

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by inch »

Just thought also maybe the Israels onboard with tempest also but not sure if they would with American influence tbh same goes for Japan truth be known but you never know they might just want a bit more sovereign capacity in future ?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by inch »

Think the Netherlands will always tow the EU line tbh

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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inch wrote:Think the Netherlands will always tow the EU line tbh
There's also the same issue as Poland has, they're buying F-35 and probably won't be looking at anything else in the immediate future.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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inch wrote:Think the Netherlands will always tow the EU line tbh
They've actually been sniffing around Tempest.
inch wrote:Just thought also maybe the Israels onboard with tempest
Kiss goodbye to any sales in the middle east then...

None of the names mentioned earlier make any sense. None have large amounts of money to spend, either in procurement or research, none have industry that brings anything of note for aerospace and combat aircraft. But most crucially none bring any sales whatsoever. So what would be the point? If they can't even bring their domestic market along to the party they should be told to sling their hook. If they're buying F-35 they're going to be operating it until 2060 at least...and that's 40 years away!

The only nation there that could possibly make sense would be Poland. But even then they operate a fighter fleet with comparatively new F-16 and have just announced a purchase of F-35. Their remaining MiG-29 will need replacing in a very short amount of time so they will not be buying Tempest as the timelines don't come close. The only possibility of a Tempest buy would be to buy a small number to replace their F-16 fleet in the 2040 timeframe or on the off chance that they decide to dramatically expand their combat aircraft fleet. And that's just not good enough.

At present the only nations who would make sense as partners are (in order of their use to a programme)

Japan
South Korea
India (purely due to purchase volumes)
Turkey (as above but politically unacceptable)
Indonesia (small numbers to purchase and limited industrial involvement but a rapidly growing country)

That's it. Everyone else is either unacceptable politically, in FCAS or are purchasers of the F-35. No other nations make sense as partners.

We should be throwing absolutely everything at getting Japan involved..if it wasn't too far down the road I'd have been chucking the kitchen sink at Canada as well, but they're going to get F-35 now.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by inch »

Ok Japan then but going to be a really really hard to get them onboard with the Americans historical partnership in equipment even if we did throw the kitchen sink at them being Americans have a lot bigger kitchen sinks to push their way , unless as they want a bit more sovereign reliance so too speak in future

JFoulke
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by JFoulke »

dmereifield wrote:
JFoulke wrote:
inch wrote:A hard choice that for Poland ,it's a political at the end of the day ,stay with france/Germany euro project or go with the naughty British brexitters and upset the French / Germans ,I can't call it tbh both got their merrits for Poland . suppose its just how much the EU machine leans on Poland not to break away
Actually the Tempest program should do all in its power to attract another European nation, any one, so to be able to take some PESCO founds (that are handed out only to programs with at least 3 European nations in it)
Post Brexit, wouldnt we need another 2 nations besides Italy to make it 3 European nations? Or is the UK still eligible?
dmereifield wrote:
JFoulke wrote:
inch wrote:A hard choice that for Poland ,it's a political at the end of the day ,stay with france/Germany euro project or go with the naughty British brexitters and upset the French / Germans ,I can't call it tbh both got their merrits for Poland . suppose its just how much the EU machine leans on Poland not to break away
Actually the Tempest program should do all in its power to attract another European nation, any one, so to be able to take some PESCO founds (that are handed out only to programs with at least 3 European nations in it)
Post Brexit, wouldnt we need another 2 nations besides Italy to make it 3 European nations? Or is the UK still eligible?
Italy and Sweden, so two European countries, we would need a 3rd one, that might also just buy 3 aircrafts, but needs to be in the European Union and be part of the project

Meriv9
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Meriv9 »

Exactly I think we shouldnt focus on Pesco funds, in worst case we can get someone like Slovenia inside as Jfoulke wrote. Plus there is a high chance that you would be included in Pesco, Mogherini said that outsiders would be evaluated case by case and I don't think the continent wants to distance itself too much from the UK on the military side.

About Japan we could start by having other trade deals with them, for example a great product we(ITA) need are the P1, if they are down for an exchange they could get M346 or get inside the AW249 program. But as always the problem are the funds.

Are there Japanese products that you need and viceversa?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Thanks, the Swedish input/partnership confuses me...but if they count as full partners in terms of Pesco eligibility then great, 2 down, 1 to go...

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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dmereifield wrote:Thanks, the Swedish input/partnership confuses me...but if they count as full partners in terms of Pesco eligibility then great, 2 down, 1 to go...
I do love the irony that in the event of the UK leaving the EU so many here think that a major concern should be securing access to EU defence cooperation funding.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by inch »

Never heard of the pesco funds personally and I'm sure it not in the team tempest front and center goal ,think they manage without it tbh and I would behave thought the EU wouldn't want UK getting it after leaving it even indirectly

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by dmereifield »

Pseudo wrote:
dmereifield wrote:Thanks, the Swedish input/partnership confuses me...but if they count as full partners in terms of Pesco eligibility then great, 2 down, 1 to go...
I do love the irony that in the event of the UK leaving the EU so many here think that a major concern should be securing access to EU defence cooperation funding.
Why not? Would make a nice change to be taking money out rather than putting it in for a change

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by JFoulke »

inch wrote:Never heard of the pesco funds personally and I'm sure it not in the team tempest front and center goal ,think they manage without it tbh and I would behave thought the EU wouldn't want UK getting it after leaving it even indirectly
It’s not a case in point, if there is 3 eu nation into a military projects, the pesco founds will be handed out anyway, even if in the project there is the UK

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by JFoulke »

dmereifield wrote:
Pseudo wrote:
dmereifield wrote:Thanks, the Swedish input/partnership confuses me...but if they count as full partners in terms of Pesco eligibility then great, 2 down, 1 to go...
I do love the irony that in the event of the UK leaving the EU so many here think that a major concern should be securing access to EU defence cooperation funding.

Why not? Would make a nice change to be taking money out rather than putting it in for a change
Well you are not the only one, also Italy is one of those nations that puts in more money than what it recieves

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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inch wrote:Never heard of the pesco funds personally and I'm sure it not in the team tempest front and center goal ,think they manage without it tbh and I would behave thought the EU wouldn't want UK getting it after leaving it even indirectly
If for now they are "negligible"
https://thedefensepost.com/2019/03/19/e ... 5-million/
The European Union will allocate €525 million to fund defense industrial and research projects in 2019 and 2020 including €100 million for the development of the Eurodrone, the European Commission said.

The Commission will allocate up to €500 million ($568 million) to co-finance joint defense industrial projects in 2019-2020, and an additional €25 million ($28 million) to support collaborative defense research projects in 2019, a Tuesday, March 19 release said, adding that the budget had been agreed with E.U. member states.

The E.U. is stepping up defense cooperation efforts, aiming to improve efficiency and effectiveness in military spending, and building towards the proposed €13 billion European Defence Fund which is slated for introduction in 2021, a key element in a strategy focused on enhancing Europe’s ability to guarantee its own security.
We dont know how big they will be in the future,if Germans and Frances will use to siphon funds and we could end up having Italian and Swedish money spent on FCAS, but finding the third country wont be a Problem IMHO.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Do you think getting access to EU funding is the primary driving force behind getting nations to sign up to tempest?

Or is getting access to certain systems and integration expertise that maybe deemed as essential to the program that can be delivered by Sweden and Italy.?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Meriv9 »

Just one post before I wrote that we shouldn't focus on Pesco funds, but that doesn't mean they arent important.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Timmymagic »

Meriv9 wrote:Just one post before I wrote that we shouldn't focus on Pesco funds, but that doesn't mean they arent important.
PESCO funds are an irrelevance. 500m EUR spread across every defence project going is going to mean next to bugger all for combat air, and what little there is will get siphoned off by France and Germany. He who pays the piper plays the tune...

Unless another European country brings a guaranteed home buy of 'Tempest' or a big lump of cash that they're happy to spend they bring nothing to the party. There are no capabilities that the 3 nations haven't got covered already.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Timmymagic »

Meriv9 wrote:Are there Japanese products that you need and viceversa?
The UK and Japan are working on the Meteor-AESA variant together (JNAAM). Both the UK and Italy could be well placed to help the Japanese move forward with their aircraft carriers (although the first port of call will be the USMC).

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by dmereifield »

Meriv9 wrote:
inch wrote:Never heard of the pesco funds personally and I'm sure it not in the team tempest front and center goal ,think they manage without it tbh and I would behave thought the EU wouldn't want UK getting it after leaving it even indirectly
If for now they are "negligible"
https://thedefensepost.com/2019/03/19/e ... 5-million/
The European Union will allocate €525 million to fund defense industrial and research projects in 2019 and 2020 including €100 million for the development of the Eurodrone, the European Commission said.

The Commission will allocate up to €500 million ($568 million) to co-finance joint defense industrial projects in 2019-2020, and an additional €25 million ($28 million) to support collaborative defense research projects in 2019, a Tuesday, March 19 release said, adding that the budget had been agreed with E.U. member states.

The E.U. is stepping up defense cooperation efforts, aiming to improve efficiency and effectiveness in military spending, and building towards the proposed €13 billion European Defence Fund which is slated for introduction in 2021, a key element in a strategy focused on enhancing Europe’s ability to guarantee its own security.
We dont know how big they will be in the future,if Germans and Frances will use to siphon funds and we could end up having Italian and Swedish money spent on FCAS, but finding the third country wont be a Problem IMHO.
Which other European partner(s) do you think will join?

Meriv9
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Meriv9 »

Timmymagic wrote:
Meriv9 wrote:Just one post before I wrote that we shouldn't focus on Pesco funds, but that doesn't mean they arent important.
PESCO funds are an irrelevance. 500m EUR spread across every defence project going is going to mean next to bugger all for combat air, and what little there is will get siphoned off by France and Germany. He who pays the piper plays the tune...

Unless another European country brings a guaranteed home buy of 'Tempest' or a big lump of cash that they're happy to spend they bring nothing to the party. There are no capabilities that the 3 nations haven't got covered already.
If you read the quote about the PESCO funds, the funds will reach 13bln by 2021 and we don't know how much when Tempest will be in the heat of development.

There is no need for other partners, as you rightly say, we just need a frontman/dummy in the worst case; most probably you will be included in PESCO like Mogherini was saying last year. This just to be on an equal footing to the FCAS project in terms of EU financing.
Which other European partner(s) do you think will join?


IMHO we have to think like with the F-35, different level partners.

I hope Poland, it is the main candidate as many pointed out. The problem is that Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway are all too small to have two fighters lines but at the same time rich enough to get the F-35, it feels like wasted potential :( if Benelux and Scandinavia were two big entities they would be the primary possible partners IMHO. I would consider Poland a second level candidate as Italy for F-35.

We have also to consider that east Europe is going to grow a lot by 2030, combine this with the fact that sooner or later we will have to step up the defense spending to substitute the US one. In this optic, I would keep an eye on the Czech and the Slovaks, the first one have the Griphen until 2027, both of them are highly industrialized skilled and they are going to grow a lot. If we throw in a maintenance plant in the deal I bet we could get a buy for 20-25 fighters?

About Japan the idea of offering help for the carriers is really good, between Trieste and QE I imagine we have quite the know-how that we could transfer to the Japanese to gain a footing for the Tempest. Are they going to build another two Izumo or they are too small to use the F35B in an efficient way?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SW1 »

Just no on so many levels the last thing wanted is another multi national bun fight looking for National work share for little input. It’s key specialities that are required as an example there is no absolute no guarantee Sweden will buy any aircraft that is potentially developed.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by dmereifield »

SW1 wrote:Just no on so many levels the last thing wanted is another multi national bun fight looking for National work share for little input. It’s key specialities that are required as an example there is no absolute no guarantee Sweden will buy any aircraft that is potentially developed.
Fair enough, but at present there is no guarantee that the UK or Italy will either...

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Meriv9 »

Then how are we going to achieve production numbers without multinational bun fights? It is a high-risk high reward because if the bun fight (thanks for teaching me a new word :D ) goes right we got the snowball effect of "mass" production no?

I think this time is going to be even worse (because I do realize it is a nightmare) and more complex with multi-national multi-product negotiation.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Ares »

Here are some things what can we provide if the gov decide to join Team Tempest;

Highest quality and low-cost aerospace-grade carbon fiber(3 Japanese companies(Toray/Teijin/Mitsubishi Rayon) currently dominate the market.)
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Aerosp ... part-costs

SiC fiber(main material of Ceramic Matrix Composite) for the next generation engine(2 Japanese companies(NGS Advanced Fiber, Ube Industry) dominate the market.)


High power tiled array GaN module(Prototype radar mounted on F-2 tester outperforms the detection range of APG-81 by twice)



Rivetless adhesive composite structure(reduce weight further by 17% than integral composite structure applied to F-2) with automatic structural analysis technology



https://www.mhi.co.jp/technology/review ... 561020.pdf

Active radar deflection panel(automatically analyzes and distorts irradiated radio waves frequency in real-time and makes them unable to obtain proper information. See how the radar speedometer recognizes stationary panel.)



IWB(we can be in charge of produce the IWB, as created a launcher similar to the F-22)




and some money and manpower. In terms of making fighter, the UK and Italy have an edge over Japan, so we may be able to help with basic technologies like materials.
Meriv9 wrote:About Japan the idea of offering help for the carriers is really good, between Trieste and QE I imagine we have quite the know-how that we could transfer to the Japanese to gain a footing for the Tempest. Are they going to build another two Izumo or they are too small to use the F35B in an efficient way?
There's no plan to build additional Izumo Class. However, the politicians are aware that it isn't enough to cover the vast Pacific region with only 2 lightweight carriers and has already been officially mentioned in the National Diet. Under the long-term plan, a large amphibious assault ship is being designed to replace 3 Oosumi Class. Many people think this ship will turn out to be the Japanese version of America Class.

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