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Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Timmymagic
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Timmymagic » 18 Jun 2019, 22:39

SW1 wrote:A cranked arrow first appeared with what was called the f16 xl.


You could make the claim that it really appeared with the Draken.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SW1 » 18 Jun 2019, 23:13

Timmymagic wrote:
SW1 wrote:A cranked arrow first appeared with what was called the f16 xl.


You could make the claim that it really appeared with the Draken.


It was certainly a early variant of a similar theme

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SW1 » 18 Jun 2019, 23:31

Timmymagic wrote:
SW1 wrote:The area I find most interesting is the loyal wingman concepts and the weapons thinking, more simplistic single mission, configurable, modular and could be introduced sooner and be integrated with current aircraft to move things only greatly in the cost capability arena. While there being shown with fighter would be interesting to test the concept in lower intensity operations with things like shadow/sentinel.


The mockup isn't that interesting at all to be honest, as someone on Twitter said 'Siri, show me a generic 6th generation stealth fighter design'....

But the surrounding vision is the interesting part (although almost comically Airbus centric). Turns out US studies from the 90's and the UK FOAS and CASOM were bang on...The video of Airbus products was interesting for the Zephyr and A400 deployment and Euromale, but as it was Airbus completely neglected to have a NeURON or Taranis style UCAV alongside

But the MBDA Remote Carriers are, I think, the least interesting part. The 2 shown by MBDA are more like MALD/JSOW type units for modular payloads. They either need to be dirt, dirt cheap, incredibly long legged (and I think they're not due to propulsion) or re-usable. They looked none of those things to be honest...Airbus' larger Loyal Wingman was also a little underwhelming, a Kratos lookalike with folding wings but seemingly no way of landing...

Basically, put the Dassault bits, including a NeURON style drone with all of the Airbus bits and you'd have a coherent whole (with perhaps a loitering munition being absent) but if the French and Germans only procure the fighter and their bits and pieces they'll end up with only part of the picture. Loving the A330 AWACS and A320NEO AEW&C that they've shown...they'll never see the light of day though..


Not sure what you were expecting. This was about conveying an image of what a system of systems approach to future battlefield might look like and where conceptual ideas of how it maybe achieved.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Timmymagic » 19 Jun 2019, 09:18

SW1 wrote:Not sure what you were expecting. This was about conveying an image of what a system of systems approach to future battlefield might look like and where conceptual ideas of how it maybe achieved.


Something a bit out of the ordinary, but more than anything a coherent concept from both partners working together. Instead there was Airbus' vision and Dassault's vision...Would have thought that at such an early stage they would have put some effort in to being a bit more united.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby cky7 » 19 Jun 2019, 20:36

Didn’t think the wing looked like a cranked or cranked delta to me when it was mentioned the other day but was unsure as the angle of the pics made it very hard to tell accurately in fairness. This video has much better angles and you can see its lambda delta which is what I’d thought I’d seen. For me the design is pretty much the mcdd/ng/bae jsf offering that lost out before the x32/x35 fly off but with two engines. Probably why I like it so much as I’ve always loved that design and have always wondered how different the jsf would be today had they not started swapping their STOVL method around last minute and not lost out on the fly off...

I actually think the lambda is quite a decent design from what I’ve read and it does seem to have fairly popular in a lot of stealth concepts particularly from around 2000 onwards for both fighters and all wing UCAV types.


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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SW1 » 19 Jun 2019, 21:04

cky7 wrote:Didn’t think the wing looked like a cranked or cranked delta to me when it was mentioned the other day


The airbus concept had this planform.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby cky7 » 19 Jun 2019, 22:02

SW1 - Ah sorry, see what you mean. Was just assuming the Paris model cos the Airbus one had been out a while and till today I’d only seen images of the Paris model from angles that I couldn’t be certain of the planform.

Interestingly in the video I linked the guy says they’re looking at a few different layouts and have split submissions into 3, poss 4 areas - fighter, network, engine and poss weapon system so prettty much as you’d said a while ago...

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Timmymagic » 19 Jun 2019, 23:32

cky7 wrote:For me the design is pretty much the mcdd/ng/bae jsf offering that lost out before the x32/x35 fly off but with two engines.


The tailless JAST/JSF was very much the most interesting, real pity that it lost out. But despite lots of manufacturers proposing tailless design when push comes to shove (except with flying wings) they all seem to end up with a tail.

Definite hint of Grumman Panther and Super Etendard about the Dassault concept.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby cky7 » 20 Jun 2019, 01:04

Timmymagic wrote:The tailless JAST/JSF was very much the most interesting, real pity that it lost out. But despite lots of manufacturers proposing tailless design when push comes to shove (except with flying wings) they all seem to end up with a tail.


That’s fair and conservative does seem to be the accepted wisdom when dealing with things as complex and expensive as future fighter aircraft. That said though tail less only really became a realistic option with the last generation (late 80s, 90s/early 2000s) so by now the potential issues will be well understood. Also one would imagine current stealth or VLO standards are gonna have to improve to not end becoming of negligible advantage. there are only a few paths I know of to allow that - stealth coatings (though this has always proven expensive and a maintenance nightmare) and EW type stealth (as mentioned in the article SW1 posted today in the typhoon thread). Both of these can be improved incrementally and one would imagine will have to be over the course of a future fighter’s operational life. So imo the effort here goes into clever design that allows this to happen easily. Any aircraft can apply these sort of th8ngs to an extent and to me they’re more systems than aerodynamic design. So the only ways I’m aware to further reduce basic observability is gonna be looking to delete the big offenders on previous VLO birds - biggest problem usually control surfaces. Thankfully answers have been looked at in TVC, fluidic thrust vectoring, flapless design/wing circulation control to name a few. A lot of people have been putting a lot of research into these sort of things for a while now and I’d be surprised if some of these techs don’t make it onto the future generation and allow us to lose the horizontal stabilisers and keep agility. Just for these sort of reasons I’d hope we see the back of them or use another method to reduce signature to the same sort of degree with changes elsewhere. Id imagine you wouldn’t want to be heading toward future peer air defences without a significantly more stealthy/hard to see/target bird.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SW1 » 06 Jul 2019, 08:34

The reason tailless has always ended up losing out is it becomes extremely difficult and expensive to get the required directional control functionality of a fighter with such a design.

A future fighter really needs to get cost down and supportability up. The more stealthy bit of the system maybe a simpler subsonic uav wingman or standoff weapon the simplest idea/example being a stormshadow with multiple payload options. The manned element being more conservative and using less exotic structures as a result.

Any how it would appear the swedes are on board.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... programme/

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Phil Sayers » 06 Jul 2019, 17:56

No disrespect to the impressive Swedish Airforce and aerospace industry intended but given that they would essentially be looking for a Gripen replacement and the RAF looking for a long range, stealthy multirole Typhoon replacement capable of penetrating heavily defended airspace I wonder how compatible the requirements are? I say that because some of the design features essential to the RAF look (to me anyway) to be 'nice to have' for Sweden but it is those design features which will result in a very expensive platform and potentially force Sweden to acquire far fewer aircraft than they want / require for the air defence role.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Lord Jim » 06 Jul 2019, 21:25

Well compared to developing their own 6th Generation platform to replace the Gripen, teaming with the UK will be cheaper to start with. The addition range requirement that the RAF have will be beneficial to the Swedes as it will allow the platform to cover more areas from fewer sites and possibly lead to the need for a smaller number. This I feel is going to be an issue affecting all European 6th Generation platforms, in that they are not going to be 1 to 1 replacements for current aircraft. Having a swing role platform optimised for air defence is exactly what the Swedes want, and they have more experience that the UK in this area. They are very good at getting the maximum out of a given platform and may be a rationalising influence on the UK who may again want a Rolls Royce solution when a good Jaguar will do.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Meriv9 » 07 Jul 2019, 01:09

Plus hasn't the strategic situation of Sweden changed?

Being in the EU with the Baltics,Polish,Finnish, etc... Etc... Doesn't it mean that they arent a "frontline" nation anymore?

Yes in the worse scenario the Baltics will fall in days but it wont be the same cold war scenario, where Sweden fends off the first waves needing casual airstrips after their airports fall for a prolonged defense.

Same for us italians where i imagine the menace will be a lot more "mediterrean" than continental. Thus with longer ranges considered.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SW1 » 07 Jul 2019, 08:20

Saab are heavily involved in the T-X program with Boeing but there not buying any of them.


First and foremost whatever is purchased to replace typhoon will have the primary mission of conducting national and nato air defence. That is a requirement for any nations likely to join the program

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Lord Jim » 07 Jul 2019, 08:50

That may well be the primary role but the platform will be capable of conducting a multitude of missions being swing role capable. Nobody can afford to build and operate specialised single role platforms any more. Regarding the T-X, SAAB have come up with some very innovative ways to run a development programme with drastically reduces the costs which allows them to submit the cheapest bid for the competition even though it was a totally new platform and ended up winning. This could have a bearing on the 6th Gen programme, allowing costs to be kept in check and improving the affordability of the entire programme.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SW1 » 07 Jul 2019, 09:44

Lord Jim wrote:That may well be the primary role but the platform will be capable of conducting a multitude of missions being swing role capable. Nobody can afford to build and operate specialised single role platforms any more.


Haven’t suggested that it wouldn’t be multirole, merely pointing out that any nation that purchases a fighter has the same primary requirement to defend there airspace and therefore have a common requirement in the platform.

The sweds and indeed the Danes have developed a number of podded systems and ways to simplify avionics and data integration that enable a number of roles to be undertaken.

The program in general in starting to get an increasing amount of engineering resource allocated and more will follow in the new year as more move over from f35.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Lord Jim » 07 Jul 2019, 18:55

I didn't mean to sound like I was criticising but rather clarifying before someone started a campaign for the platform to be called the "Spitfire" as it was a true air defence machine. :)

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Pseudo » 07 Jul 2019, 19:03

The sad thing about Sweden joining is that the project will now never be renamed the Future UK Combat Aircraft and never be referred to by the acronym, FUKCA.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby dmereifield » 07 Jul 2019, 19:50

Pseudo wrote:The sad thing about Sweden joining is that the project will now never be renamed the Future UK Combat Aircraft and never be referred to by the acronym, FUKCA.


Swedish & UK Combat Aircraft, SUKCA

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Pseudo » 07 Jul 2019, 20:01

dmereifield wrote:
Pseudo wrote:The sad thing about Sweden joining is that the project will now never be renamed the Future UK Combat Aircraft and never be referred to by the acronym, FUKCA.


Swedish & UK Combat Aircraft, SUKCA

Yeah, I suppose that an RAF spokesperson saying that they intend to have the SUKCA operational by 2035 isn't bad. :)

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Jensy » 07 Jul 2019, 23:02

Pseudo wrote:
dmereifield wrote:
Pseudo wrote:The sad thing about Sweden joining is that the project will now never be renamed the Future UK Combat Aircraft and never be referred to by the acronym, FUKCA.


Swedish & UK Combat Aircraft, SUKCA

Yeah, I suppose that an RAF spokesperson saying that they intend to have the SUKCA operational by 2035 isn't bad. :)


Image

Assuming the most advanced fighter threat to Northern European airspace will be the Sukhoi Su-57, I suppose combining the two it could be nicknamed the:

"Sukha-Fukca"

I'll get my coat.

Jensy

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SKB » 07 Jul 2019, 23:17

Other collaboration possibilities: :mrgreen:

West Africa and North Korea
Saint Helena and Italy
Taiwan and Austria
Colombia and Cook Islands
Argentina and Sweden
Phillipines and South Sudan

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby dmereifield » 08 Jul 2019, 00:00

So we now have confirmation of Sweden joining the programme, but do we have any details on what and how they'll contribute? Surely they'd need to chip in a few hundred million £?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby clivestonehouse1 » 08 Jul 2019, 00:13

SKB wrote:Other collaboration possibilities: :mrgreen:

West Africa and North Korea
Saint Helena and Italy
Taiwan and Austria
Colombia and Cook Islands
Argentina and Sweden
Phillipines and South Sudan


Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby shark bait » 08 Jul 2019, 09:32

SW1 wrote:A future fighter really needs to get cost down and supportability up

Yes, this needs to be front and centre. The Swedish nailed this on Gripen, hopefully they can bring a bit of that to Tempest.

Phil Sayers wrote:they would essentially be looking for a Gripen replacement and the RAF looking for a long range, stealthy multirole Typhoon replacement capable

And if they can meet in the middle it could be an awesome aircraft. Gripen is a neat aircraft, its a 90% Typhoon at 50% of the cost. If Tempest can combine the qualities of each to produce a simple and long ranged combat aircraft they could be on to a winner.

I'm holding out for a 90% F-22 from Tempest.
@LandSharkUK


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