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Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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inch
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby inch » 18 Feb 2019, 07:04

Italy would be better placed with a tie up with UK anyway than France and Germany , they get a lot more out of the partnership

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 18 Feb 2019, 07:11

inch wrote:Italy would be better placed with a tie up with UK anyway than France and Germany , they get a lot more out of the partnership


I agree and the level of integration between the industries is already high
- will not stop Italy's contributions to the EDF, though

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Lord Jim » 18 Feb 2019, 12:16

The comments on the quality of Italian manufacturers in the defence sector have rather surprised me. I have not heard of any major issues with the components Italy have manufactured for the Typhoon. The equipment that has been provided to the Italian Army and Navy are regarded very well. Sure all companies can make mistakes but as long as they are identified and corrected it is not a real issue.

I would far prefer a few correctable quality control issues to dealing with a country whose Government suddenly decides that it want to totally screw up a programme by deciding the platform being built isn't what they want, therefore drastically reduce the numbers it intends to purchase bit still wants to retain the same level of overall workshare.

The key driver of both European future combat aircraft programmes is to protect the respective countries aviation defence industries. Italy and the UK are in a pretty good position here because they still have workshare in both the Typhoon and F-35, though the formers value will drop unless further orders appear. France has nothing similar and Germany has the Typhoon. Both have a buoyant civilian sector with Airbus, but this companies attempts at entering the defence market have not been that successful.

With a core of the UK, Sweden and Italy, Tempest has a fairly good foundation to work off. Whether the other project will be as lucky once the bills start going up is another matter in my opinion.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 18 Feb 2019, 13:48

Lord Jim wrote: Italy and the UK are in a pretty good position here because they still have workshare in both the Typhoon and F-35, though the formers value will drop unless further orders appear.

Yes, the F-35 is a bridge and Germany will have - after all these decades of dragging their feet - 'make work' orders for Eurofighter, to be able to build/ maintain their bridge
- Dassault and Saab can neither 'go-it-alone' anymore, but their negotiating hand is not bad

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby shark bait » 18 Feb 2019, 13:55

It's the best foundation tempest could hope for.

Italy's combat air is almost identical to the Brits, including the important carriers (unlike the French), and the Swedes have proven they can work with the Brits on the Grippen, and take a very pragmatic approach to balance cost and capability.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Meriv9 » 18 Feb 2019, 14:22

shark bait wrote:It's the best foundation tempest could hope for.

Italy's combat air is almost identical to the Brits, including the important carriers (unlike the French), and the Swedes have proven they can work with the Brits on the Grippen, and take a very pragmatic approach to balance cost and capability.


And the best side? The Japanese needs if I'm not wrong are the same as us, we are three insular countries, the three of us use both F-35A and B, carriers with no catapult, the Italian pacifists wont be able to complain since there is no more "peaceful" country than Japan. If we play our cards well getting them onboard would be such a hit!.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby shark bait » 18 Feb 2019, 14:33

I find it hard to be quite as enthusiastic about the Japanese link, unlike the Italians and Swedes, working with the Japanese on a massive aerospace project is unprecedented. On the other-hand they would bring cash and lots of industrial capability so perhaps it would be beneficial.
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inch
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby inch » 18 Feb 2019, 17:48

Looks like Japan pulling out of UK more than joining with the UK today

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 18 Feb 2019, 18:53

inch wrote:Looks like Japan pulling out of UK more than joining with

The beauty of amphibious ops: if the beachhead turns out to be unworkable, you simply pull out and land somewhere else.
- luckily for Tempest, relative to the R&D funding pool required and to leveraging complementary technological capabilities as a way of cost avoidance, the motive of entering new markets is secondary

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Lord Jim » 18 Feb 2019, 19:03

I will be interesting to see if Japan can be enticed to partake in Tempest. In the past they have worked closely with US aerospace companies like Lockheed on the on the F2 so switching to European partners would be new territory for Defence related projects. They will no doubt want to build in country but that should not be a issue, in fact more likely a bonus having a production line out east. A lot will depend on what Japanese content there is in the platform as their export regulations are still pretty strict. Finally they do have a trend of wanting pretty bespoke platforms, though there are examples where this was limited like the F-15Js. On balance I think they would be good partners and bring some intriguing ideas and tech to the programme.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SW1 » 18 Feb 2019, 19:25

I think if you look at how the relatively straightforward clean sheet MRJ program has gone it would be another warning sign. The design certification and fielding of aircraft is the most challenging industrial undertaking you can do. Very few companies are involved in such endeavours and they tend to be the same suspects for particular specialities for a reason.

The more inexperienced your partners the bigger the risk to cost overrun schedule and needing people to sort it out beware you are not blinded by offers of cash. One of the reasons airbus has been desperate to get away for the workshare based on national bias rather than competance. See German insistence on doing the TP400 fadec software despite having limited experience for a cautionary tail.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Gtal » 18 Feb 2019, 21:57

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Yes, the F-35 is a bridge and Germany will Haven - after all these decades of dragging their feet - 'make work' orders for Eurofighter, to be able to build/ maintain their bridge
- Dassault and Saab can neither 'go-it-alone' anymore, but their negotiating hand is not bad


The Rafale is 100% french right? No ITAR either if I'm not mistaken.
To me that looks more 'go-it-alone' than the Eurofighter or am I missing something.
The UK can't even export the joint-program without Germany giving the nod.

Germany's halt in exports to Saudi Arabia is preventing Britain from completing the sale of 48 Eurofighter Typhoon warplanes to Riyadh[...]


https://www.yahoo.com/news/german-halt- ... ccounter=1

And the british workshare in the f35 is about 15% only.

Anyway Dassault and Airbus have already signed a first contract towards building a new franco-german combat aircraft. Spain tagged onto it as the 3rd Airbus partner so they have the money and capabilities necessary.

https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/gr ... ir-system/

The question really is can the UK find the necessary partners for such a project?
Saab have shown what they can do with the Gripen, but they have somewhat limited battlefield exposure unlike France and Dassault for example, and let's be honest, Sweden does not provide the ressources or the money necessary to challenge the FCAS project.
Italy is teetering on the edge of serious financial trouble and is politically unstable, not exactly an ideal partner.

No way Japan is joining the UK for anything in the near future either.

Hell, the UK itself is unstable in a way and unless something happens in the next 6 weeks I really don't see how anything is supposed come from Tempest.

Sorry to put it that blunt but am I wrong?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby matt00773 » 18 Feb 2019, 23:11

Gtal wrote:And the british workshare in the f35 is about 15% only.
Yes, for over 4000 jets...
Gtal wrote:Anyway Dassault and Airbus have already signed a first contract towards building a new franco-german combat aircraft. Spain tagged onto it as the 3rd Airbus partner so they have the money and capabilities necessary.
They provided €65 million for the next 2 years. This amount is meaningless for such a large undertaking. In contrast, UK alone as provided £2 billion until 2025. Also, as far as capabilities go, only the UK has worked at the top level on the F35 programme and Italy also has provided a lot. I'm sure France, Germany and Spain have more work to develop next gen capabilities.
Gtal wrote:The question really is can the UK find the necessary partners for such a project?
Saab have shown what they can do with the Gripen, but they have somewhat limited battlefield exposure unlike France and Dassault for example, and let's be honest, Sweden does not provide the ressources or the money necessary to challenge the FCAS project.
Italy is teetering on the edge of serious financial trouble and is politically unstable, not exactly an ideal partner.
I'd be more comfortable with Italy on board than either Germany or France. Sweden has plenty of money and resources to be a partner.
Gtal wrote:No way Japan is joining the UK for anything in the near future either.
UK and Japan already signed a defence agreement on close cooperation. UK RAF and marines have been training in Japan - only country outside the US to do so.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-a ... ce-ties--2
Gtal wrote:Hell, the UK itself is unstable in a way and unless something happens in the next 6 weeks I really don't see how anything is supposed come from Tempest.

Sorry to put it that blunt but am I wrong?
I don't see what the timeframe of the next 6 weeks has to do with the success of the Tempest programme. What does the next 6 weeks have to produce exactly?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Gtal » 18 Feb 2019, 23:26

Japan is not going to join an industrial project with the UK while their having to wind down their car industry in the UK! Get back to reality!
Not to mention Hunt and Fox(?) egg-on-face moment just now!

The next contracts for Airbus and co are coming this Autumn not in two years.
And what are 2 billion going to do in 6 years? What exactly is the money for? Random RnD? Totally unspecified sum that will just drain away into nothing in the hands of the MoD and BAE.

Italy cant pay for this shit right now ( which is why they got left out by germany and france, they want Italy to get their shit together first).
Their government is also straight up volatile, see their budget or Venezuela or Russia.

And Sweden has a GDP of 568 Million € that's nothing. They can't be compared to Germany or France.

Stop ignoring reality!

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Jensy » 19 Feb 2019, 00:03

A fair amount of the French population is currently trying to overthrow the government. Merkel has signalled a cooling of intent in further Eurozone integration. The richest single part of Spain voted to succeed from the rest of the nation 18 months ago and it's still not been resolved.

Extremist political movements are taking hold across central and eastern parts of the continent. There is a migrant crisis and a corresponding failure of leadership from all corners on how to resolve these two issues.

I really don't think any major European state has bragging rights over stability at the moment.

Remember that it was Merkel who sank the BAE Airbus merger back in 2012 for purely nationalistic reasons. Had that gone ahead, there would be no need for two European fighter programmes, as the companies would already be in synergy and have the scale and resources to seriously challenge US companies.

Instead we are where we are.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Lord Jim » 19 Feb 2019, 00:10

Winding down car manufacture in the UK is irrelevant as we are talking about a joint programme where Japan would conduct final assembly in house.

Airbus is a walking disaster when it comes to military projects, just look at the A400. Its helicopter division maybe better but that is simple the inclusion of Eurocopter so not credit to Airbus.

AS for the £2Bn that is for the R&D of next generation systems that could be incorporated into the next gen platform and also existing ones like the Typhoon.

Yes Italy and the UK have problems and France and Germany don't?

Oh and Germany is basically untrustworthy when it comes to defence programmes, look how they screwed its three partners in the Eurofighter programme. It has only one priority when it comes to defence programmes and that is maintaining its industry and to hell with what may happen to those who are its partners. As For France they just want to have the lead in any programme and German money, but unless Germany gets off its ideological horse not one FCAS will be exported as the only customers, if any will be the Gulf states.

So although I do not mind your bluntness you are wrong.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Lord Jim » 19 Feb 2019, 00:40


bobp
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby bobp » 19 Feb 2019, 02:03

Lord Jim wrote:An interesting twist to Tempest.


Already shared this link two pages back.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Meriv9 » 19 Feb 2019, 02:10

IMHO we aren't considering the main stake holder at all.

The French program is in poor words a consolation prize by Germans in exchange to the economic hegemony of the continent.

So who is the main player we must observe? The german taxpayer.

The last time they were asked to save some frenchs, in specific the french banks that were exposed for a total of 70bln towards Greece, they had to wait until after the May 2010 Land elections, and if at Feb2010 the bail out cost for Germans was 10bln by June of the same year it skyrocketed to three digits.

Now do you imagine the german taxpayer, that until now has paid 1% Gdp into military expenditure paying for: a french nuclear strike able fighter, carrier based and thus designed for force projection?

Will they pay willingly for a two generation step? 4th to 6th?

And the best part? We are in a failsafe situation, even if they get a change of heart and future vision, what reaction do you expect from the US and the Russians about a German population that so eagerly finance a nuclear strike naval fighter?


I mean Tempest situation and future looks complex but the continental one is dire.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Gtal » 19 Feb 2019, 07:24

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You guys really are that delusional. Wow!

At least it explains how Brexit ended up happening I guess! I'll leave you guys to your echochamber circlejerk!

Silly me thinking one could find a sensible substanstial defence debate on here!


Edit: Just two substantial points for the sake of it. 1.The continent is glad as f*ck BAE and Airbus didn't merge. Merkel showed some real forsight there.
It would have beenn an even bigger clusterfuck than we already have.
2. Regarding EU funding: If you want some of that I have bad news; no non-EU country can be project leader, so you will have to let the swedes take over and become a junior partner. How you like that?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Defiance » 19 Feb 2019, 07:36

Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out, sweetheart x

EDIT: Haha, so much German salt. You're a wee bit precious aren't you?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Gtal » 19 Feb 2019, 07:46

Defiance wrote:Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out, sweetheart x

EDIT: Haha, so much German salt. You're a wee bit precious aren't you?


I have english and german citizenship and have lived in both countries. But the UK really broke my heart in the recent past. I dont know what happened and all my UK family and friends are just as heartbroken. They just don't have the easy option to relocate..
I work in the defence industry.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Defiance » 19 Feb 2019, 07:55

Gtal wrote:I have english and german citizenship and have lived in both countries. But the UK really broke my heart in the recent past. I dont know what happened and all my UK family and friends are just as heartbroken. They just don't have the easy option to relocate..
I work in the defence industry.


It shows with your whole '**** the UK, Europe rocks!' vibe you've been giving off which just seems juvenile, especially so considering you then bemoan the lack of reasoned debate.

I don't really care about what people say they do on the internet, I value what they say more.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 19 Feb 2019, 08:26

Gtal wrote:am I missing something
Yes: the word anymore. That translates to 'accent on the future' as 'today' is a fleeting moment
Gtal wrote:What exactly is the money for? Random RnD?
Wouldn't it be nice ;) to find out?
Jensy wrote:Remember that it was Merkel who sank the BAE Airbus merger back in 2012 for purely nationalistic reasons. Had that gone ahead, there would be no need for two European fighter programmes, as the companies would already be in synergy and have the scale

Exactly the point; in my 'morse' style of writing I called those two orders 'make work' - in order to build a bridge to something which is only on its launch pad (as a project and a design) in this fleeting moment of today.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 19 Feb 2019, 08:47

Meriv9 wrote:paying for: a french nuclear strike able fighter, carrier based and thus designed for force projection?

Will they pay willingly for a two generation step? 4th to 6th?


Supposedly the core requirements have been agreed (but we have not been told much), but the fun [as per above] only now starts with the iteration of designs against meeting these rqrmnts


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