Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
-
- Retired Site Admin
- Posts: 2657
- Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:10
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion
F-22, J-20 and the Su-57 make it clear that you can have twin engines and useful sized internal bays.
And this is definitely on a scale with the F-22 in terms of aircraft size.
And this is definitely on a scale with the F-22 in terms of aircraft size.
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
Look how far back that double-tyred nosegear is, its almost at the mid-point of the aircraft. It would look easy for Tempest to be moved around in an enclosed space, such as a carrier hangar. Or onto a deck-edge lift. And look how far back the rear gear are. The size of the wings too. Imagine if a sea variant had folding wings? Looks very sea-worthy to me.
I would hope that a sea variant is at least considered.
I would hope that a sea variant is at least considered.
- shark bait
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6427
- Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
= Budget quadrupled & the UK have 20 to share between the Navy and Air Force.SKB wrote:I would hope that a sea variant is at least considered.
@LandSharkUK
-
- Donator
- Posts: 3243
- Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
Speculation is that the nose gear is from Tornado for the purposes of the mock up, not sure if we can read too much into it.SKB wrote:Look how far back that double-tyred nosegear is, its almost at the mid-point of the aircraft. It would look easy for Tempest to be moved around in an enclosed space, such as a carrier hangar. Or onto a deck-edge lift. And look how far back the rear gear are. The size of the wings too. Imagine if a sea variant had folding wings? Looks very sea-worthy to me.
I would hope that a sea variant is at least considered.
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
So both manned & unmanned variants? Manned aircraft paired with 1 or 2 unmanned wingman? As I'm peeking at tiny pics on my phone is it purely single seat or is there a twin cockpit option?
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
From this angle it sort of reminds me of the plane in Firefox... Did the England team come back from Russia with a trophy after all?SKB wrote:
(Photos: @RAeSTimR Tim Robinson)
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
Little J wrote:it sort of reminds me of the plane in Firefox...
*thinks "must have sea variant" in Russian*
♪
-
- Donator
- Posts: 3243
- Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
I'm not sure the F-22 is a great example. J-20 and SU-57 seem to make a better fist of it.RetroSicotte wrote:F-22, J-20 and the Su-57 make it clear that you can have twin engines and useful sized internal bays.
Twin engines actually make it a little easier to have an internal bay, due to hull volume and to shield the face of turbines via S-ducts which should leave internal volume for a decent bay.
-
- Retired Site Admin
- Posts: 2657
- Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:10
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
What makes you say that? F-22's layout in a British format would permit it to carry 4x A2A missiles and 8x SPEAR internally. That's quite respectable, greater than F-35 even.Timmymagic wrote:I'm not sure the F-22 is a great example. J-20 and SU-57 seem to make a better fist of it.
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
question ,is this just a uk play to get back on a European French/german project ie please let us have a part in your European programme or is it going to be a genuine uk Swedish japan or who ever else interested in joining programme and potential competition to the French/german aircraft ?
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
All to play for. Anything else is speculation.inch wrote:question ,is this just a uk play to get back on a European French/german project ie please let us have a part in your European programme or is it going to be a genuine uk Swedish japan or who ever else interested in joining programme and potential competition to the French/german aircraft ?
-
- Retired Site Admin
- Posts: 2657
- Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:10
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
http://www.janes.com/article/81766/farn ... h-included
Could be the biggest problem. How do you attract in a partner who's not interested in bleeding edge material, but insists you replace some of your own bleeding edge with it?
Makes you wonder what the E actually has to offer Tempest. Certainly not engine, radar, etc. As I am aware the Gripen was said to have a good EW kit, but no idea how it compares.Speaking on the opening day of the Farnborough Airshow, the head of Aeronautics, Jonas Hjelm, said that Saab has yet to decide which of the numerous ‘sixth-generation’ platforms that have recently been announced would be best suited to the Swedish company’s requirements, and that all possibilities remain open so long as its Gripen E technology features in any development path
Could be the biggest problem. How do you attract in a partner who's not interested in bleeding edge material, but insists you replace some of your own bleeding edge with it?
-
- Donator
- Posts: 3243
- Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
Apart from the maintainability aspect the truth is nothing. Engine clearly not. Radar is just a smaller Captor E. Gripen E may have decent EW fit, but it won't be on a par with F-35's. It's hard to see what Saab could bring to the party that is genuinely cutting edge apart from some cash...RetroSicotte wrote:Makes you wonder what the E actually has to offer Tempest. Certainly not engine, radar, etc. As I am aware the Gripen was said to have a good EW kit, but no idea how it compares.
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
Seems Japan with its similar geography and concerns, plus experience in 5th gen prototyping and AESA expertise would be the most desirable.Timmymagic wrote:Apart from the maintainability aspect the truth is nothing. Engine clearly not. Radar is just a smaller Captor E. Gripen E may have decent EW fit, but it won't be on a par with F-35's. It's hard to see what Saab could bring to the party that is genuinely cutting edge apart from some cash...RetroSicotte wrote:Makes you wonder what the E actually has to offer Tempest. Certainly not engine, radar, etc. As I am aware the Gripen was said to have a good EW kit, but no idea how it compares.
-
- Donator
- Posts: 3243
- Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
F-22's was optimised for A2A, there wasn't much thought for A2G ordnance. As a result it's fairly limited in what it can carry, same with the YF-23 which was even more restricted.. it's got lucky in some respects due to SDB's, but it's still going to be dramatically limited on what size A2G ordnance it can carry. SU-57 and J-20 seem to have gone for a much larger main bay. Far better to have a large bay that can adapt to different munitions over the course of the aircrafts life. In hindsight the F-35's are still a little small, particularly the B's.RetroSicotte wrote:What makes you say that? F-22's layout in a British format would permit it to carry 4x A2A missiles and 8x SPEAR internally. That's quite respectable, greater than F-35 even.
Looks like a big weapons bay on this..
https://twitter.com/BAESystemsplc?ref_s ... r%5Eauthor
-
- Donator
- Posts: 3243
- Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
Absolutely. The Japanese are the real prize for co-operation. South Korea or Italy are consolations in comparison.-Eddie- wrote:Seems Japan with its similar geography and concerns, plus experience in 5th gen prototyping and AESA expertise would be the most desirable
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
I think that's being harsh on the Italians TBH, they are somewhat overshadowed by the UK & France when it comes to defence & don't shout about it but they do have a superb indigenous aerospace industry if you look hard enough, every bit the equal of Japan.Timmymagic wrote: Absolutely. The Japanese are the real prize for co-operation. South Korea or Italy are consolations in comparison.
The real prize of South Korea & Japan would be in potential SE Asian sales.
-
- Donator
- Posts: 3243
- Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
Lot of respect for the Italians when it comes to joint projects. Rather partner with them than any other European nation.Cooper wrote:I think that's being harsh on the Italians TBH, they are somewhat overshadowed by the UK & France when it comes to defence & don't shout about it but they do have a superb indigenous aerospace industry if you look hard enough, every bit the equal of Japan.
I did mean in relation to sales and investment though.
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
Definitely. Quite frankly Sweden with Scandinavia wouldn't offer much as I can't see Norway or Denmark replacing their expensive F-35s within 20~30 years.Cooper wrote:The real prize of South Korea & Japan would be in potential SE Asian sales.Timmymagic wrote: Absolutely. The Japanese are the real prize for co-operation. South Korea or Italy are consolations in comparison.
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 2762
- Joined: 03 Aug 2016, 20:29
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
Honest question, why do you think Tempest would be cheaper?SKB wrote:I wonder if this means the number of F-35's to be bought will decrease and be boosted by a greater number of less expensive Tempests ?
How can we make a 6th gen (or 5th+) in limited numbers (if it's just the UK, say ca. 150 airframes, if we get a couple of other nations on board such as Italy and Sweden, say ca. 350 airframes) cheaper than a mass produced (ca. 3000 airframes) 5th gen?
Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)
I reckon Saudi Arabia would be the most desirable partner because they're the closest we'd get to a partner that would be happy to just hand over the cash and let us get on with it.-Eddie- wrote:Seems Japan with its similar geography and concerns, plus experience in 5th gen prototyping and AESA expertise would be the most desirable.