Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
matt00773
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by matt00773 »

According to the below article, UK maybe set to outline strategy for next generation fighters during next months Royal International Air Tattoo - "Excluded from cooperative plans in Europe, UK sets groundwork for future fighters"

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... -fighters/
LONDON ― Expectations are growing among industry executives and analysts that the British government will use a huge gathering of international air force chiefs in the U.K. in mid-July to outline a strategy leading to development of a new generation of fighter jets for the post-2040 era.

sunstersun
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by sunstersun »

japan.

japan.

japan.

pls pls pls

RetroSicotte
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by RetroSicotte »

My expectation is a highly vague statement that addresses no specifics or plans, only that they are "investigating avenues to foster cooperation and oppurtunity in the aerospace sector, with aim to future technologies."

sunstersun
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by sunstersun »

yeah I'm preparing to be massively disappointed. This is some half ass coupled shit for sure.

still it would be nice if the UK recognized the urgency of the situation.

andrew98
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by andrew98 »

UK/Japan with elements out to Canada / Australia (& New Zealand)
All island nations (except Canada, but oceans either side and massive land mass without divert runways) thus range important, all friendly to USA but not wanting to be over reliant..

Can only dream...

RetroSicotte
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by RetroSicotte »

So instead of the Eurofighter, it'd be the Anglofighter.

I can dig it.

sunstersun
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by sunstersun »

The PR coup if by some miracle that was the actual name of it lmao.

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SKB
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by SKB »

The SNP and Plaid Cymru might object to the name "Anglofighter". :mrgreen:

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by Caribbean »

SKB wrote:The SNP and Plaid Cymru might object to the name "Anglofighter". :mrgreen:
Maybe if they invest a couple of billion each in the project, they can have a say in the name :twisted:
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RetroSicotte
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

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SKB wrote:The SNP and Plaid Cymru might object to the name "Anglofighter". :mrgreen:
As I said, I can dig it. :p

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by seaspear »

Perhaps the ability to be launched off carriers using EMAL should be considered with a longer range than aircraft now being introduced it would not be expected that the f35b would still be flying thirty to to fifty years time but the carriers fielding them will need aircraft it may be too expensive to have a replacement for the f35b and a new fighter at the same time it may be cheaper then to reconfigure the carriers for emal than a program with costs the f35 had .

Jake1992
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by Jake1992 »

seaspear wrote:Perhaps the ability to be launched off carriers using EMAL should be considered with a longer range than aircraft now being introduced it would not be expected that the f35b would still be flying thirty to to fifty years time but the carriers fielding them will need aircraft it may be too expensive to have a replacement for the f35b and a new fighter at the same time it may be cheaper then to reconfigure the carriers for emal than a program with costs the f35 had .
Don't you think there'd be a new consortium like with the F35 program to replace it ?

The USMC will still want a STOVL aircraft same with the Italians and possibly the Spanish, Australians and Japanese

matt00773
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

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seaspear wrote:Perhaps the ability to be launched off carriers using EMAL should be considered with a longer range than aircraft now being introduced it would not be expected that the f35b would still be flying thirty to to fifty years time but the carriers fielding them will need aircraft it may be too expensive to have a replacement for the f35b and a new fighter at the same time it may be cheaper then to reconfigure the carriers for emal than a program with costs the f35 had .
F35b aircraft will be in service until the 2070s - around the same lifecycle as the carriers so I don't think any new fighter aircraft will be part of that service capability. I'm sure this is around air superiority capability in the same vane as Typhoons. Also, I think that EMAL, CATS/TRAPS reconfiguration for the carriers has already been looked into and the cost was more than actually building one from scratch.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by Scimitar54 »

Do not forget that this "presumed too high cost" was set against a background of significantly extending the "capability gap" in Carrier Strike that had been originally caused by the premature withdrawal of the Invincible class and also the Sea/GR9 Harrier aircraft. The main reason was not the cost, it was the the further delay to the programme.

~UNiOnJaCk~
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by ~UNiOnJaCk~ »

matt00773 wrote:According to the below article, UK maybe set to outline strategy for next generation fighters during next months Royal International Air Tattoo - "Excluded from cooperative plans in Europe, UK sets groundwork for future fighters"
LONDON ― Expectations are growing among industry executives and analysts that the British government will use a huge gathering of international air force chiefs in the U.K. in mid-July to outline a strategy leading to development of a new generation of fighter jets for the post-2040 era.
They could well be doing us a favour judging by how much of a sh*tshow the last few pan-European attempts have turned out to be for us.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by seaspear »

matt00773 wrote:F35b aircraft will be in service until the 2070s - around the same lifecycle as the carriers so I don't think any new fighter aircraft will be part of that service capability. I'm sure this is around air superiority capability in the same vane as Typhoons. Also, I think that EMAL, CATS/TRAPS reconfiguration for the carriers has already been looked into and the cost was more than actually building one from scratch.
f35b around till seventies I dont believe you mean an aircraft will last fifty years if you mean at end of life cycle they are replaced then the total purchased could be easily double what has been proposed for the total buy certainly developments in physics of radars and computing may erode the stealth abilities well before then The cost of emal for the carriers may run into billions but so would a type 35b next in line and that is depending on the U.S.M.C having that need because its not using a super uav instead

Opinion3
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by Opinion3 »

Updated trainer jet to replace the Hawk edging more towards fifth gen tech/cap followed by a typhoon replacement look like the best markets. But I am ignoring remote piloted aircraft because of CAA restrictions but in the real world can we afford to do this?

matt00773
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by matt00773 »

seaspear wrote:f35b around till seventies I dont believe you mean an aircraft will last fifty years if you mean at end of life cycle they are replaced then the total purchased could be easily double what has been proposed for the total buy certainly developments in physics of radars and computing may erode the stealth abilities well before then The cost of emal for the carriers may run into billions but so would a type 35b next in line and that is depending on the U.S.M.C having that need because its not using a super uav instead
The F35 platform as a whole is designed for 50 years - not that a single air frame will last 50 years. The 138 that UK will procure will no doubt be over many decades and last until QEC replacement. Remember the Tornado came into service in 1979 and will be operated by Germany well into the 2020s. The F15 will be well over 50 years in service before the final one is decommissioned.

I just don't think the EMALs thing is going to happen with QEC. STOVL/SRVL in my mind is more efficient and will develop better over the course of time with updates to the F35b.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by seaspear »

I understood the UK buy of the f35b wa to total something like 138 if these aircraft are all delivered by 2030 he air-frame is good for say 20000 plus hours to maintain that number subsequent numbers of aircraft would need to be obtained from 2030 till 2070 the lifetime of the ship

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Opinion3 wrote:trainer jet to replace the Hawk edging more towards fifth gen tech/cap followed by a typhoon replacement look like the best markets. But I am ignoring remote piloted aircraf
- agree with the other two, but would say the trainer market will be well sewn up after the USAF choice (no version of Hawk was anywhere near the "must have" criteria, to enter)
matt00773 wrote:Remember the Tornado came into service in 1979 and will be operated by Germany well into the 2020s.
- we had an OSD of 2024 until the 2010 cuts started the dramatic shrinking of the overall fleet, allowing for far less specialisation between the types in service
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by Timmymagic »

matt00773 wrote:emember the Tornado came into service in 1979 and will be operated by Germany well into the 2020s.
Thought Tornado came into service in 1982 for the RAF?

Lord Jim
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by Lord Jim »

Given the size of the RAF, if we do still purchase the planned number of F-35s I feel it will be over a very convoluted time period. We probably will never have more than 3 frontline and one training squadron stood up at any one time, so having a maximum of 50-60 aircraft total in service. The remainder would be purchased over time to replace original models with later versions and maybe even different variants and the fleet ages. I think the days of the RAF having a large reserve of airframes within a given fleet to manage hours are over as we cannot afford to but airframes that simply end up stored. As a result those we do buy are going to be worked hard once fully in service.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by RetroSicotte »

http://www.janes.com/article/81575/anal ... r-aircraft

Some project names to keep an eye out for.

I wonder who the four companies are. BAE, Rolls, Selex and...Cobham maybe? Anyone got a good guess?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by Defiance »

MBDA most like.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by gokkurt »

UK in talks with Sweden over next-generation fighter jet
MoD looks to new aerospace partners after being left out of Franco-German programme

A Swedish-built Saab Gripen fighter © Reuters

Peggy Hollinger and David Bond JULY 5, 2018 Print this page102
The UK has held initial discussions with Sweden about collaborating on a future fighter jet, as it prepares to reveal a long-awaited combat air strategy at the Farnborough air show later this month.

As part of the strategy, the government is expected to commit to launching a next-generation fighter programme by 2020 in a sign of its post-Brexit ambitions to retain cutting-edge combat air expertise.

The strategy, which is expected to set out a timeline for awarding a firm manufacturing contract by 2020, has yet to be given final cabinet approval. But it aims to deliver a strong signal to potential international partners that the UK is determined to press ahead with such a programme, despite being left out  of a Franco-German future fighter project last year. 

The statement is expected to set out the criteria for international collaboration, stressing that the UK intends to play a leading design role in any partnership to develop a fighter to replace the Typhoon jet from 2040. Sweden — whose defence flagship, Saab, makes the Gripen combat aircraft — has indicated its potential interest and would be a natural partner, according to several sources.

A Ministry of Defence spokesperson said: “The combat air strategy will be launched to ensure Britain maintains a world-leading combat air capability.”

The accord struck last summer between Paris and Berlin to work on a road map for a future fighter programme took the UK government by surprise and stunned executives at BAE Systems, repository of Britain’s combat air expertise. BAE has for several years been working with France’s Dassault Aviation on a future unmanned fighter. It is also a prime partner in the Eurofighter consortium with Franco-German Airbus and Italy’s Leonardo.

The unmanned project, combining capabilities on Britain’s Taranis demonstrator and France’s Neuron, has been seen by many in the defence sector as critical to sustaining the UK’s competence in high-end aerospace skills and technology once Typhoon production ends around 2024.

However, several sources said that collaboration appeared to be stalling in the wake of the Franco-German accord. A person close to BAE said it continued to progress but admitted that the technology involved in the partnership was being reviewed as the focus turned to a future fighter.

France and Germany last month signalled that initial plans for collaboration on a so-called sixth-generation fighter had expanded to include its role in a wider combat system.

Dassault and Airbus have been named the prime industrial partners on the Franco-German project, while France will lead the programme. The two countries have said they would be open to working with other partners, but at a later stage. This has raised concerns that if Britain were to join the project it could be forced to take a secondary role and be locked out of the crucial planning and design phase of any future fighter.

Industrial sources said Brexit tensions had clouded the issue. Questions over the UK’s willingness to make a firm commitment to funding a programme have also frustrated European partners, one industry executive said.

“To break into the Franco-German relationship, we have got to put something on the table that makes it worthwhile for them to take it seriously,” he said.

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The strategy will aim to do just that and will be a “strong statement of national interest”, according to one person close to the subject. However, it will not mention the Franco-German accord and will deliberately leave the door open to other partners. As well as Sweden, Japan and South Korea could be potential partners, industry sources said.

BAE said: “We welcome debate about the need for next-generation combat air systems across many nations. We have a strong history of collaboration with other nations and continue to invest in new and emerging technologies so we can develop future aircraft.”

Although the strategy is not expected to define whether the next-generation jet will be manned or unmanned, it will set out policy goals, future requirements and timelines for certain milestones on a future fighter programme.

It is not yet clear if there will be any funding announced at the air show. However, BAE Systems is expected to unveil a concept aircraft at Farnborough to showcase potential technologies for a sixth-generation fighter.

Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2018. All rights reserved.

https://www.ft.com/content/818c6b98-7fc ... 1a0846c475

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