Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

[shark bait]

I assume you are joking.

yes, it was all the Spanish

[sunstersun]

What does UK want? As long as brexit doesn't become hard exit, I doubt Germany and France are in any position to say no to the UK.

Japan/UK, EU/UK, USA/UK. Going with USA/UK twice in a row would be a heavy commitment, that I don't think is too wise.

[ArmChairCivvy]

I doubt Germany and France are in any position to say no to the UK.

I agree. And with the drip-feeding of F-35s into the fleet, the bridge to the "future" is longer than what the other two countries have at their disposal (USAF, of course, say that they need the PCA in 2040s in order not to be left behind... well, the RAF is not quite endowed with the same resources so count on F-35 improvements along the way).

[Lord Jim]

It could be that the future of the RAF is actually the reversal of the ration between the Typhoon and F-35, with the RAF ending up with three to four Squadrons of Typhoons say a Lossiemouth and six or seven F-35 Squadrons at Marham and Conningsby over this timeframe with the Typhoon replacement coming along in the 2040s. I think we are more likely to see a low-vis UCAV enter service in limited numbers before a new manned platform before then.

[ArmChairCivvy]

with the Typhoon replacement coming along in the 2040s. I think we are more likely to see a low-vis UCAV enter service in limited numbers before a new manned platform before then.

That is exactly it as many buyers are thinking of their F-35s ordered soon-ish lasting (not all of them) out to 2060.
- so our mix can be adjusted as the alternatives become to take shape (no development funding and fewer alternatives; not to mention the sustainability of industry... which has taken on more and more of the maintenance and support under the cost efficiency banner. One could come to the conclusion that without sustainable industry here the costs would go back up?)

[gokkurt]

Why don't you consider on Turkey to build fifth generation fighter with. Leanordo also interest in TFX project.Britain, Turkey and Italy can produce fifth generation fighter easily and this project get over French-German fighter project and can be exported huge amount to the middle east and south Asia and Turkey's close ally ofcourse with British mind.

[Meriv9]

Because by how it is right now, Turkey and its neo-ottoman stance is a great risk to us.
Also we have to see how it ends the S-400 vs F-35 situation.

(At least for us italians)

[Lord Jim]

Can Germany, for example, be trusted to commit the level of funding required over the timeframe needed to develop a new manned platform, and buy the agreed amount at the end of it. France will probably do so as they see such a programme as much a matter of national prestige as providing for their military. Luckily the UK can afford to sit on the fence with Typhoon in serve and the F-35 slowly coming on stream. What I would like to see enter the frame though is a UCAV based on the F-35, probably the A model, as this would be attractive to those countries who have signed up for the manned version. It would fit into the developing supply chain and if utilising some of the tech developed already under the existing UCAV development programmes would be a low risk, relatively, option. Going all the way you could develop UCAV variants of all three versions to suit all customers. Living in a fantasy world is fun sometimes.

[shark bait]

Luckily the UK can afford to sit on the fence

The UK can't afford to sit on the fence.

BAE has a massive wealth of talent sitting in its design offices, with less and less work to do. It's on life support at the moment, and without a new project those engineers will get bored and retire or move on to Airbus.

The government needs to put its weight behind something to sustain the very strong industry.

The Anglo-French project was the best option, but they've been cheating with their new BFF, the Germans, and we don't need that third wheel messing things up like usual. All the other partners are bad options.

[SKB]

UK should drop out of the Anglo-French European UCAV project (nEUROn?) and go it alone with an improved Taranis 2. And give it an arrestor wire hook and/or short roll landing ability for QE deck landings.

EDIT: Meant FCAS, not nEUROn

[Gabriele]

The UK is not part of Neuron and never has been.

The UK is part of FCAS with France. France's contribution to FCAS will be partially shaped by what they have already seen with Neuron, just as the UK's contribution will keep track of what was trialed with Taranis.

[shark bait]

I hope the arrestor wire is a joke.

Going it alone is looking more attractive, the issue is supporting it long run (like challenger)

[RetroSicotte]

I hope the arrestor wire is a joke.

Going it alone is looking more attractive, the issue is supporting it long run (like challenger)

Challenger's issue was poor decision making, rather than being alone in its ownership. However the point you make is a valid one for supporting such a thing all the same.

I generally agree, as I said before, British aerospace direly needs something wholly British to sink its teeth into and stay independently able on. Military, civil, whatever. This situation where we're constantly having to ask people for help is as inefficient as it is nationally humiliating.

[SKB]

How about a Taranis 2 with detachable pilot cockpit pod?!

[Lord Jim]

I am all for supporting the British Aerospace Industry, that what we have the DTI for, and agree the Government should do more, but with Typhoon probably being retained until the 2040s, at least in the UK Air Defence role, and with the planned development of the F-35 the RAF is going to be in a pretty good position. France and Germany need a next gen platform at least as capable as the F-35 we can wait, as far as defence spending goes until the follow on platform(s).

Going it alone again would be great if the Government can find the money from outside the Defence Budget to fund the research and development. Aerospace is still a strong industry and BAe is not going to fall down anytime soon as a company. The future of Warton is an issue but I think directing them in the direction of a joint European day one UCAV is probably the best option for the design team. We need the shape of the Franco/German programmes to be far more clear before putting any effort into joining their programme and given German politics I don't trust them to stay the course and meet any commitments they may initially make.

In a nutshell the Government cannot use Defence spending to sustain the UK Defence industry by basically using the Defence Budget as a source of subsidies.

[ArmChairCivvy]

In a nutshell the Government cannot use Defence spending to sustain the UK Defence industry by basically using the Defence Budget as a source of subsidies.

I quite agree, but we come to the broader question of setting direction and priorities, thereby assuring that the overall (funded) prgrm portfolio then delivers a rounded capability. So I'll try to break it down a bit:
- an informed and systematic identification of science and technology priorities and a research and development program to address these is an essential
- it is a starting point to address gaps in capability and therefore needs to be "inside" defence... who else can asses capabilities and their overlaps/ gaps. The aforesaid has an implication as to where such efforts are to be funded from
- eventually, this work is required to be translated into resourced programs of work to deliver actual capability. This last mentioned bit is embodied in the 10-yr EP; anyone sighted the preceding bits? Or more like, the Gvmnt having done the opposite by dismantling the so-called Establishments (and then privatising the residual)

[shark bait]

Its not subsiding industry, its recognising that a strong Air Force needs a strong industry to support it. If there isn't the work load to support those jobs, the skills base will dissolve, and the RAF will be worse off because of it.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Air Force needs a strong industry to support it. If there isn't the work load to support those jobs, the skills base will dissolve, and the RAF will be worse off because of it.

One such knock-on effect Most of what has been outsourced would come back in-house or be in the hands of companies that owe their adherence to a different Sovereign.

[Lord Jim]

Yes the MoD needs to be involved, as you say they are the ones who are responsible for the identification of required capabilities and so on. The costs of this part of the equation in very small compared to the R&D to take it to the next level, and it is this stage that should have its funding from outside of Defence for the most part. Of course some programmes are going to be so sensitive that it would be essential to keep them "In house".

I agree in an ideal world all three Armed Services would be supported by strong british defence industries, but successive governments have allowed the latter to disappear one by one and now it is the Armed Services that are supporting the Defence Industry as a rule to thumb. Again I agree we need to maintain a certain level of sovereign capability to build and support defence related material, but this should fall under the DTI, one of whose jobs is to support british industry. Now it may be easier for the Government to use the defence budget to provide support as this may circumvent EU regulations on state subsidy so if that is the case the money should be transferred from DTI to the MoD as part of the game.

Going back the the RAF next manned platfrom, BAe is far more integrated in the USA than europe and possibly BREXIT will exacerbate this. Whilst a european UCAV is likely to have a UK contribution, isn't more likely that we will continue to follow the US considering we are more in sync with their timeframe for the next platfrom the France or especially Germany?

[shark bait]

So the The Department of Trade and Industry should be the ones driving a Typhoon replacement? Great idea.

[Jake1992]

So the The Department of Trade and Industry should be the ones driving a Typhoon replacement? Great idea.

I think it's more they should be supporting the funding prosse st each stage of every military project that related to British industry especially strategic sovereign industries, or simply transfer the required money to the MOD.

I can't see any problem with this, it's not about running the projects it's about helping to fund them as without these projects these parts of the British industry will die.

I believe the Italians do something similar but also involve there verion of the DFID aswell

[shark bait]

back to the old argument of robbing Peter to pay Paul

[Jake1992]

back to the old argument of robbing Peter to pay Paul

I don't think having a department that is ment to help uk industry putting money towards projects that do exactly that is robbing Peter to pay Paul, it's about how HMG prioritise spending the tax money.

Some would say we should spend less on defence to fund the NHS or spend more on DFID none of this is robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Robbing Peter to pay Paul would be taking money away from say the p8 project to then put it in the UCAV project for example

[Ron5]

Going back the the RAF next manned platfrom, BAe is far more integrated in the USA than europe and possibly BREXIT will exacerbate this. Whilst a european UCAV is likely to have a UK contribution, isn't more likely that we will continue to follow the US considering we are more in sync with their timeframe for the next platfrom the France or especially Germany?

Attaboy Jim

[ArmChairCivvy]

considering we are more in sync with their timeframe for the next platfrom the France or especially Germany?

Not sure about that as both mentioned have 2040(-ish) in their sights
- Typhoon/ Rafale expiry, without major (as yet unplanned) updates
- USAF statement about missions in which by 2040 F-35 might not be effective anymore; hence the drivers for the PCA spec... which PCA will not be a wholesale replacement, but will help to produce the same kind of combo they are now getting with the top-end F-22 and the "cost-effective " F-35

The jokers in the pack (when we look that far out) are of course the emerging unmanned designs.