Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

[RetroSicotte]

The Franco german project FCAS which envisages service entry after 2035, represents a threat to Britain’s position at the heart of warplane development as negotiations continue on terms for its exit from the European Union. Sorry !

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... on-at-risk

You're not wrong.

But they don't care. They have F-35, and so long as they can point to that plane and say "We have new planes with our rising defence budget to ensure our forces have the best equipment possible" they don't give two hoots about the job losses from an industry going under.

They did it to the ground industry, and they're in the process of doing it to the air and naval ones too.

[shark bait]

meh, tell them to sick it and we'll bring son of Taranis into operation by our self, then get on board with the F22/35 hybrid!

[Timmymagic]

meh, tell them to sick it and we'll bring son of Taranis into operation by our self, then get on board with the F22/35 hybrid!

"Dassault Chief Executive Officer Eric Trappier said Wednesday in Berlin that 70 years of expertise make the group best-placed to play the part of “architect” on a new plane, though the allocation of roles remains under discussion with Airbus."

"He added that the Franco-German plan would likely fail if Berlin opted to buy the F-35 for the role."

Well that looks like it can't go wrong...

[Gabriele]

I'm not eager to work with Germany, which very nearly killed the Typhoon a hundred times over; or Airbus for that matter, that can't even get parachute launches in stick to work from the A400 side doors.

There are about one billion things that can go wrong in this project.

[Ron5]

The Franco german project FCAS which envisages service entry after 2035, represents a threat to Britain’s position at the heart of warplane development as negotiations continue on terms for its exit from the European Union. Sorry !

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... on-at-risk

You're not wrong.

But they don't care. They have F-35, and so long as they can point to that plane and say "We have new planes with our rising defence budget to ensure our forces have the best equipment possible" they don't give two hoots about the job losses from an industry going under.

They did it to the ground industry, and they're in the process of doing it to the air and naval ones too.

Are you forgetting that Bae is at the heart of the F-35 program?

[RetroSicotte]

Are you forgetting that Bae is at the heart of the F-35 program?

Not at all, but it a notable step down from Britain producing a truly "British" aircraft that was conceieved, designed, and produced in the UK alone (even accounting for the near standard set of some foreign parts in most planes for anyone), like used to happen. There isn't anything on the immediate horizon even as British made as the Tornado or Typhoon have become, now that FCAS is starting to falter with the French. And even that is 50/50. No majority.

The F-35 is still an American plane, with only 15% of it made here. The UK doesn't even have access to the source code for goodness sake. It is no thing to point to when people talk about "British jets".

If the UK were properly investing and supporting its aeorpsace development for combat jets, then we wouldn't be having layoffs and constantly being forced to either buy foreign or look for equal partners as opposed to doing what France did/is doing and just make it themselves, or become the lead developer for others.

Make no mistake. It's a strong industry, but its losing its prime capabilities to produce independantly, or to be a huge force in commanding the total majority (as in, not just the largest share, I'm meaning 50%+) of a major project. The longer these things go, the harder they are to get back.

[sunstersun]

Just go for Japan brew.

[PapaGolf]

We just need new partners. Let’s look to other allies who have or want an aerospace industry. Italy, Spain, Sweden, Australia, Japan, Brazil even some of the Middle East countries who are investing in typhoon.

We’re probably better off without France and Germany for co-development projects.

[ArmChairCivvy]

now that FCAS is starting to falter with the French. And even that is 50/50. No majority.

Are there recent signs of that faltering?
- must admit I have not had much time for primary sources over the last couple of months

[Lord Jim]

I have a feeling that FCAS is going to be pushed further and further down the line into the 2040s at the earliest.

[Ron5]

Are you forgetting that Bae is at the heart of the F-35 program?

Not at all, but it a notable step down from Britain producing a truly "British" aircraft that was conceieved, designed, and produced in the UK alone (even accounting for the near standard set of some foreign parts in most planes for anyone), like used to happen. There isn't anything on the immediate horizon even as British made as the Tornado or Typhoon have become, now that FCAS is starting to falter with the French. And even that is 50/50. No majority.

The F-35 is still an American plane, with only 15% of it made here. The UK doesn't even have access to the source code for goodness sake. It is no thing to point to when people talk about "British jets".

If the UK were properly investing and supporting its aeorpsace development for combat jets, then we wouldn't be having layoffs and constantly being forced to either buy foreign or look for equal partners as opposed to doing what France did/is doing and just make it themselves, or become the lead developer for others.

Make no mistake. It's a strong industry, but its losing its prime capabilities to produce independantly, or to be a huge force in commanding the total majority (as in, not just the largest share, I'm meaning 50%+) of a major project. The longer these things go, the harder they are to get back.

It's been rather a long time since the UK has produced a totally British military aircraft.

Harrier or Hawk maybe?

The current level of UK defense spending just doesn't allow it. Doesn't stop the UK Aerospace industry from being #2 in the world.

By the way, a huge chunk of F-35 software is written by Bae, the 3rd largest defense company in the world.

[Ron5]

now that FCAS is starting to falter with the French. And even that is 50/50. No majority.

Are there recent signs of that faltering?
- must admit I have not had much time for primary sources over the last couple of months

Bae's assessment was that this was just an exercise whereby the French freely extracted British knowhow in autonomous flight & stealth and would be cancelled by them as soon as enough was learned. Bae bitterly fought the UK political decision to allow French access to UK owned IP.

Of course the smart politico's said it would help for a smooth Brexit. Yeah right.

[RetroSicotte]

Are there recent signs of that faltering?
- must admit I have not had much time for primary sources over the last couple of months

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... stry-says/

It's been rather a long time since the UK has produced a totally British military aircraft. Harrier or Hawk maybe?

Precisely my point, these things become monstrously hard to get back to doing to longer you leave it.

The current level of UK defense spending just doesn't allow it. Doesn't stop the UK Aerospace industry from being #2 in the world.

Due to civil aviation for the most part, not due to primary British military aerospace platforms. And like I said, low budget is a sign of lack of investment.

By the way, a huge chunk of F-35 software is written by Bae, the 3rd largest defense company in the world.

And a huge chunk of all that is BAE in the United States, which is not British. Similar to how France isn't the one who made Starstreak, despite "Thales" being on the name.

[shark bait]

It's been rather a long time since the UK has produced a totally British military aircraft.

Typhoon was pretty much a British aircraft that we let our euro buddies crawl all over.

BAE and Rolls could easily bring a new aircraft into service, problem is finding the money to do it. The Government need to make some tough choices if it wants to stay number 2!

For what its worth, I think we should go balls in and crack on with a drone by our self. Whilst the eurocrats are busy playing politics, UK PLC can take the lead and have the tech to buy into whatever we want later.

[RetroSicotte]

It's been rather a long time since the UK has produced a totally British military aircraft.

Typhoon was pretty much a British aircraft that we let our euro buddies crawl all over.

BAE and Rolls could easily bring a new aircraft into service, problem is finding the money to do it. The Government need to make some tough choices if it wants to stay number 2!

For what its worth, I think we should go balls in and crack on with a drone by our self. Whilst the eurocrats are busy playing politics, UK PLC can take the lead and have the tech to buy into whatever we want later.

While you're certainly more optimistic than me (and thats cool, there always should be both sides) I do definitely agree and feel the UK need something in the air that they can really point to and go "Britain".

That's part of whats been missing so long, something that is indisputably British, that whenever its seen pretty much defines British Aerospace. It's difficult to overstate just how much prestige and thus respect and interest the Rafale brought France due to it being so independent. British Aerospace really needs a shot like that, something to dig into and create again to show they still can, put away the doubts the rest of the world is starting to have.

[shark bait]

From an engineering perspective it could totally be done, its the finance to support it that is the problem, we don't want to end up with a Challenger with wings. (or Nimrod with wings )

If we pick a drone it becomes more realistic, a drone is pretty much a software project. The air frame does not need to be state of the art, and BAE have already demonstrated they can build a stealthy wing that flies, they now need to incrementally develop the software.

[Pseudo]

While you're certainly more optimistic than me (and thats cool, there always should be both sides) I do definitely agree and feel the UK need something in the air that they can really point to and go "Britain".

That's part of whats been missing so long, something that is indisputably British, that whenever its seen pretty much defines British Aerospace. It's difficult to overstate just how much prestige and thus respect and interest the Rafale brought France due to it being so independent. British Aerospace really needs a shot like that, something to dig into and create again to show they still can, put away the doubts the rest of the world is starting to have.

I agree with the sentiment, but I think that the best proposition for demonstrating British ingenuity and technological achievement lies in the civilian aerospace sector with the Skylon spaceplane. If that can be made to work it'll be a game changer, if it can be made to work mostly British funding it'll absolutely reassert the UK's position as a global aerospace innovator. If the UK can do that then I doubt that it'll be quite so difficult to attract willing partners for a next generation combat aircraft.

[RetroSicotte]

I agree with the sentiment, but I think that the best proposition for demonstrating British ingenuity and technological achievement lies in the civilian aerospace sector with the Skylon spaceplane. If that can be made to work it'll be a game changer, if it can be made to work mostly British funding it'll absolutely reassert the UK's position as a global aerospace innovator. If the UK can do that then I doubt that it'll be quite so difficult to attract willing partners for a next generation combat aircraft.

No disagreement there, may not have been clear from my post but yes, something even civil based would be a great project.

[shark bait]

Skylon is in a totally different ball park, the technology to make that work doesn't exist yet, whereas the technology to make an operational combat drone is already available.

Its a long path until we see a British space plane, and development of a space vehicle should continue with some government support, but we need something a bit more real in the interim. (Also probably need a conventional space capability operational before jumping to such a novel approach)

[Pseudo]

Skylon is in a totally different ball park, the technology to make that work doesn't exist yet, whereas the technology to make an operational combat drone is already available.

The technology to make Skylon work certainly does exist and progress appears to be going pretty much to schedule. Even at the present rate of development it's likely as not going to be operational before any British next generation combat aircraft project.

Its a long path until we see a British space plane, and development of a space vehicle should continue with some government support, but we need something a bit more real in the interim.

It's a long path until we see anything unless the government are willing to provide the funding for it. From what I can see Skylon is perfectly real, more so than any future manned combat aircraft project or even FCAS.

(Also probably need a conventional space capability operational before jumping to such a novel approach)

While operating in space is by no means easy, it's always been the getting there that's the really hard bit.

[shark bait]

The technology does not exist, no one has ever flown a precooled turbine, never mind one bolted to the front of a combined cyclce engine. There has not even been a full cycle ground demonstration yet. Without the engine it isn't going to go very far.

[Pseudo]

The technology does not exist, no one has ever flown a precooled turbine, never mind one bolted to the front of a combined cyclce engine. There has not even been a full cycle ground demonstration yet.

Ah, right. I see what you're saying. It's not that the technology doesn't exist it's that it hasn't been fully demonstrated. That's a fine objection to have, but it's one that I'll happily dismiss as I think that there'd be more unique technological expertise to be learned from the failure of Skylon than there would be from the success of FCAS.

[Ron5]

Typhoon was pretty much a British aircraft that we let our euro buddies crawl all over.

I assume you are joking.

[Dahedd]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Aerospace_EAP


Part of me still wishes the UK had pressed on solo with the EAP.

[ArmChairCivvy]

pretty much

25% ? Even Gripen beats it (30% ?)