Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

[Gabriele]

You do not produce a comparable heavy lift machine, and the germans quickly gave up on trying to design and produce one, so it is not like there is much of a choice. It is either no heavy lift, or US-made heavy lift, in absence of the buckets of money needed for putting together an Airbus alternative.

[abc123]

The purchase of Chinooks would be an earthquake in France, we buy that the helicopters that build Airbus, France only buys what it produces, buying the HK416 made a scandal.

And whose fault is that France doesen't produces rifles anymore?

[Frenchie]

You do not produce a comparable heavy lift machine, and the germans quickly gave up on trying to design and produce one, so it is not like there is much of a choice. It is either no heavy lift, or US-made heavy lift, in absence of the buckets of money needed for putting together an Airbus alternative.

We need Chinooks, the whole army would like Chinooks, but since Airbus does not develop heavy helicopters, France prefers to buy NH90 in large numbers rather than Chinooks, it's silly but it's like it.

@abc123
The Famas has never been exported: too expensive, too sophisticated faced with the simplicity at low price of the Kalashnikov, so the factory has closed.

[abc123]

You do not produce a comparable heavy lift machine, and the germans quickly gave up on trying to design and produce one, so it is not like there is much of a choice. It is either no heavy lift, or US-made heavy lift, in absence of the buckets of money needed for putting together an Airbus alternative.

We need Chinooks, the whole army would like Chinooks, but since Airbus does not develop heavy helicopters, France prefers to buy NH90 in large numbers rather than Chinooks, it's silly but it's like it.

@abc123
The Famas has never been exported: too expensive, too sophisticated faced with the simplicity at low price of the Kalashnikov, so the factory has closed.

About factory, when you are not willing to give subsidies to the factory, then you have no right to scream "scandal" later when your army buys German...

About Chinook:
If you need a tractor that has say 50 hp strength, you will not be able to do the trick with two tractors of 25 hp each...

[Frenchie]

You are absolutely right, the situation is stupid but it is France

[abc123]

The Famas has never been exported: too expensive, too sophisticated faced with the simplicity at low price of the Kalashnikov, so the factory has closed.

Do you know what's the cost?

[abc123]

You are absolutely right, the situation is stupid but it is France

Trouble is, any serious factory could equip French Armed Forces within a few years, at most. So, you have two choices: either paying workers to do nothing for next 20 years or order new rifle every 10 years ( and pay workers for 5-6 years to do nothing ). Lose-lose solution. But, if you want to have your own production....

[abc123]

You are absolutely right, the situation is stupid but it is France

Out of curiosity- what's your opinion on other contestants for new rifle? ( FN SCAR, HS VHS-2, Beretta ARX160 and SIG-516 )

[Frenchie]

The price of a FAMAS is € 3000.
I am not a specialist in assault rifles, but the French special forces have tried several types of rifles and the fact that since 2008/2009 more than 1500 French soldiers use the HK416 intensively may have clearly influenced the choice, and rightly so. I can very well understand a decision maker who will tell you: It has been 7 years since 1500 commandos are fighting with this gun and are very satisfied, we will trust them.

[LordJim]

Can France afford to produce a Rafale 2.0? I think the only hope for a next generation European manned fast jet is going to be when Germany decides it needs a new platform. Italy will carry on with its Eurofighter and small number of F-35s and Spain with eventually a similar choice. Most other nations have jumped on to the F-35 bandwagon, and Any future European platform is going to have to compete with a then mature F-35.

The UK will end up tying its coat tails to the US in aerospace, keeping BAe going through work share with larger US companies, at least whist it can bring something to the table. I can see the UK ending up with only two platforms in service after 2040 and that would be the F-35 and whatever UCAV is purchased by the USAF and USN.

As mentioned above for the European Defence Industry to survive it need to evolve into three conglomerates, one each for land, sea and air, producing a standard MBT, Fast Jet, Frigate and so on. Manufacturing and assembly need to be rationalised so for example France would get air, Germany land and Italy sea, with other nations building sub-assemblies AKA. Airbus 2.0. Cannot see it happening though, but rather takeovers and legal challenges in the ECJ on competition, and nation interest grounds.

[seaspear]

Though there is a commitment by the U.K to the F35 program at some point there will need to be a replacement for the Eurofighter that operates with the F35 ,should the U.K work with the French Germany program there remains the possibility of high costs and long delays , could there be a consideration as with the F35 program of working with American companies in the development of future aircraft particularly as sixth generation is the buzzword ?

[shark bait]

Typhoons replacement shall be the FCAS. The RAF will end up with the F35 and whatever that project delivers.

[Defiance]

Typhoons replacement shall be the FCAS. The RAF will end up with the F35 and whatever that project delivers.

I'd be neat to get the wider forum's opinion on this matter, strawpoll maybe?

[abc123]

As mentioned above for the European Defence Industry to survive it need to evolve into three conglomerates, one each for land, sea and air, producing a standard MBT, Fast Jet, Frigate and so on. Manufacturing and assembly need to be rationalised so for example France would get air, Germany land and Italy sea, with other nations building sub-assemblies AKA. Airbus 2.0. Cannot see it happening though, but rather takeovers and legal challenges in the ECJ on competition, and nation interest grounds.

Agreed.

[Frenchie]

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... ghter.html

According to the specifications provided by Airbus Defense & Space, the successor to the Tornado and the Rafale would be a combination of aircraft with pilots and drones capable of conducting reconnaissance missions and electronic warfare, and even strikes.

[abc123]

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... ghter.html

According to the specifications provided by Airbus Defense & Space, the successor to the Tornado and the Rafale would be a combination of aircraft with pilots and drones capable of conducting reconnaissance missions and electronic warfare, and even strikes.

It looks as another too expensive and 15 years late European project....

[Frenchie]

The French and German governments must make a choice, leave to the United States the monopoly of combat aircraft, or maintain in Europe a capacity for autonomy.

[dmereifield]

The project is not yet off the ground and they are already arguing - in service date of 2035 or 2040!

I hope we (the UK) can end up with something positive from our collaborations with Japan and Turkey, and hopefully, get in on the action with whatever the US does for 6th gen....

[ArmChairCivvy]

Typhoons replacement shall be the FCAS. The RAF will end up with the F35 and whatever that project delivers.

I'd be neat to get the wider forum's opinion on this matter, strawpoll maybe?

A good idea, just have to be careful how many things are on the move under the same FCAS acronym. Actually, UK is well positioned with the long build-up planned for the F-35, the Tiffies lasting long enough to be replaced by the unmanned "companion" and then seeing what the European/ Japanese/ US 6th gen projects will have come up with, on the manned "front". Breakingdefence makes this contribution
"One, and arguably the most likely, option for Germany is to be a lead nation in a European multinational program. In early June senior Airbus officials voiced the hope that France would participate in such a project.

Paris is already involved in a next-generation air combat project. France and the UK have been working on an Unmanned Combat Air Vehicle under the aegis of the Anglo-French Defense Cooperation Treaty. The program has served to sustain key combat aircraft design and development skills in BAE Systems and Dassault, but exactly how, and perhaps even if, it proceeds in the longer term remains an open question.

The UKs decision to leave the European Union has not made it any easier for Britain’s defense and aerospace sectors as they try to position themselves for future collaborative European programs. BAE Systems, however, is also involved in supporting the Turkish TFX fighter program, and there is the possibility of involvement in similar Japanese program."

[Frenchie]

Dassault Aviation CEO Eric Trappier, who heads the French Aeronautics and Space Industries Group (Gifas), calls for cooperation between Europeans in military drones, in an interview published on Friday.

"For my part, I am very much in favor with the idea of building cooperation in Europe", referring to the first European demonstrator of nEUROn fighter combat drone, the fruit of the cooperation of six countries (France, Italy, Sweden, Spain, Greece and Switzerland).

"I hope that the cooperation with the British as a part of the Lancaster House treaty on combat drones will quickly lead to the launch of an operational demonstrator bringing together the six industrialists involved in this project," including Dassault Aviation.

The other participants are the British groups BAE Systems (defense) and Rolls Royce (engine), the French Thales and Safran, and Selex (subsidiary of Finmeccanica).

Regarding another project involving Dassault Aviation, Airbus and Leonardo on a "future observation drone to meet the needs of France, Germany, Italy and Spain", "we are now waiting the politic green light for this program".

[shark bait]

Some news, the programme is progressing with top level options now defined.

The air frame will be the same side as a Dassault Rafale, with a slightly larger wing span, featuring a twin leading edge planform.

It will have a single M88 engine (used in the Dassault Rafale) and it will be a sub sonic only aircraft.

The 2 demonstrator's will not be common, instead they will be developed with different systems for each country.

Carrier ops are desired by the French, but that has little benefit for us.

Subsonic seems like the strangest thing to come out of Paris, I would like to know the reasoning behind that, perhaps it's totally changing the face of air combat. Would also prefer to see the EJ2000 in there, it has way more flight hours under its belt than the French engine.

[Frenchie]

http://aviationweek.com/paris-air-show- ... f70096457f

[~UNiOnJaCk~]

Some news, the programme is progressing with top level options now defined.

The air frame will be the same side as a Dassault Rafale, with a slightly larger wing span, featuring a twin leading edge planform.

It will have a single M88 engine (used in the Dassault Rafale) and it will be a sub sonic only aircraft.

The 2 demonstrator's will not be common, instead they will be developed with different systems for each country.

Carrier ops are desired by the French, but that has little benefit for us.

Subsonic seems like the strangest thing to come out of Paris, I would like to know the reasoning behind that, perhaps it's totally changing the face of air combat. Would also prefer to see the EJ2000 in there, it has way more flight hours under its belt than the French engine.

Perhaps the demonstrators will differ on powerplants??? Seriously though, using the M88? I know the EJ2000 is overpowered but, as you say, way more life hours/experience to draw upon plus it has a superb technical profile. If the EJ2000's power is putting people off, then there are plenty of lower rated, yet highly reliable (and probably cheaper/more easily supported) power plants out there to choose from...This has French lobbying written all over it as i can't think of a single technical reason why one would voluntarily elect to use the M88 otherwise...

[ArmChairCivvy]

can't think of a single technical reason why one would voluntarily elect to use the M88 otherwise...

technical reason? Like in ships, hull and propulsion 40%, the rest 60.

Kit out two identical airframes, declare that all the other systems exc. for the French active stealth will come from the other partner... and voi la :50/50 and everyone happy!

[RetroSicotte]

You know how everyone keeps saying to expect France to be a good partner in these things?

Still waiting for one example of it.

Why in the blithering hell would we let the UCAV be downgraded in spec so much from its original concept just to satisfy them?

Time was the British UCAV was intended to be supersonic, and now it has to use the underpowered and more expensive to buy and run M88 that even France themselves want to update on the Rafale?