Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

[ArmChairCivvy]

about $40m

The national press here did the ccy conversion (err... trns and blns involved, too ) and got $4.4 bn as the Japanese defence budget being proposed
... so the above stands for 10% then

[Roders96]

The F35 had a good start but they've tempest is going to cut its budget, the writing is on the wall.

Could you rewrite that? I don't understand what you are trying to say.

He's trying to weasel his way out of saying UK Fighter manufacturing is a Bae monopoly after he belatedly realized that the F-35 is a Lockheed Martin product.

LANCA which I think will be the next "fighter" acquired is unlikely to be Bae either.

Anyone that knows anything about monopolies knows they start at 25% market share...

Another key indicator is how they respond to new entrants in the market. Often they throw up barriers to entry and use their influence to push out competitors.

Seems to be ticking all of the above, no?

[Timmymagic]

Probably an overstatement, but for the LOL's I would love this if it were true...

[ArmChairCivvy]

The article (in FAZ) is at a general level, but pins the conflict to detailed (German) parliamentary control of releasing development monies at each stage, perhaps even asking questions. An irritating procedure, the French side feels.

In other sources the crosspull around export policy has been well known, but a new issue (not new, but less advertised) was brought to the light by Les Echos:
"In exchange of funding the NGF, Germany requires the acquisition of every major technology developed under the FCAS by non-German industries. The lack of cooperation from France or Spain to let that happen would anger Germany, which could then slow down or stop the collaborative program (Les Echos, 2020)."
- could be the two sides of the same coin (issue)

[Jensy]

Meanwhile on the other side of La Manche...

The worst two international partners ever (honorable mention to India), together, just the two of them, on a highly visible, highly political and very expensive program.

What possibly could go wrong?

In fairness the French don't really deserve to be lumped with those two.

India is chaotic, openly corrupt and susceptible to geopolitical 3d chess. Whereas the Germans are deeply calculating when it comes to defence products and will seize any opportunity to dominate, especially when left open goals like on Boxer. However the rest of the times they are beholden to a very anti-war majority in parliament, so find themselves reneging on numbers and investment. The irony that they are now investing more in Typhoon, just as the other partners lose interest isn't a coincidence, it was an opportunity to seize the reins of the programme, so they actually have something to offer their FCAS buddies and seek to take a fairly underserved role in development and manufacturing.

France is a more sophisticated type of difficult partner. Their very unique 'Gauloise' business culture, especially with defence, ensures that regardless of which company you partner with, there is a political element, direct from the Elysee Palace. If you have a strong stomach and a position of relative strength, they can be the most valuable of partners and deliver world class products, with the evenly matched Anglo/France rivalry pushing each side to be better and achieve things faster. Together we've built some amazing aircraft, like the Caravelle, Concorde, Lynx and Jaguar.

Still we are where we are and I don't envy them their Teutonic and Iberian bedfellows.... If they wish to join late and develop carrier and nuclear capable Tempest variants, at their own cost, then who could say no! (Just dont let Safran near the engines, or they'll sick an M88 derivative in there at ludicrous cost).

[Defiance]

Team Tempest is a joint-BAE/MOD activity

Team Tempest is a lot more than just Bae.

True, I misspoke

[Timmymagic]

The irony that they are now investing more in Typhoon, just as the other partners lose interest isn't a coincidence, it was an opportunity to seize the reins of the programme, so they actually have something to offer their FCAS buddies and seek to take a fairly underserved role in development and manufacturing.

Buying some more Typhoon isn't investing in it. They're 2 different things. The Germans actually had to give up a portion of their share of the Typhoon programme to compensate the UK when they cut their initial order. The possible orders that are being mentioned, under Quadriga and beyond, won't alter that share. It's done and dusted. So the German 'investment' consists of paying the UK money for the additional development that the UK undertook take the aircraft up to P3E standard so that the Germans can get access to that. Then they're going to spend money on Radar 0, which primarily comes back to the UK. And then they spend a load of money with Hensoldt developing Radar 1, which won't be bleeding edge and merely puts them on a par with France by that point. Meanwhile the UK from its more advanced state moves to Radar 2 which will then earn the bulk of export orders from the likes of Saudi and Qatar. The UK will also benefit more from the addition of new weapons to Typhoon which all hail from the UK side of MBDA. Same with the DASS upgrade and additions like BriteCloud.

The only way that the Germans could 'seize' any additional control of the programme is if they developed the Airbus proposed EW version or landed the Swiss contract (which given past German sales efforts is exceptionally unlikely). Even then though that will only be a small sized programme overall, unless the Italians join in as well to replace the ECR capability. With every German order that comes in (and Spanish) the UK is going to get c40-45% of the revenue.

[Timmymagic]

I thought I read back in Jan that RR were looking to develop a ramjet engine set up for Temepest or was that just pie in the sky talk from a press department ?

The talk was, and is, of using the advanced heat exchanger developed for Reaction Engines SABRE in future fighter engines. Not to create a ramjet, but to help to manage the thermal load. Even in that more limited role it would be a gamechanger.

[ArmChairCivvy]

If they come off the blocks this much behind

P3E standard so that the Germans can get access to that. Then they're going to spend money on Radar 0, which primarily comes back to the UK. And then they spend a load of money with Hensoldt developing Radar 1, which won't be bleeding edge and merely puts them on a par with France by that point.

then it is easy to see the rationale for the below clause

In exchange of funding the NGF, Germany requires the acquisition of every major technology developed under the FCAS by non-German industries.

which must leave Dassault seething; having become the R&D Dept for German aerospace industry

[inch]

I wouldn't let France , Germany join tempest ever ,no flipping way . possibly let Spain join tho ,but as they will never go against the EU big 2 it wouldn't happen ,it's all just spin and the journey anyway ,France and Germany will come together no matter what to make it happen because they can't afford not to have the euro offering for political reasons if nothing else.

[Jake1992]

I wouldn't let France , Germany join tempest ever ,no flipping way . possibly let Spain join tho ,but as they will never go against the EU big 2 it wouldn't happen ,it's all just spin and the journey anyway ,France and Germany will come together no matter what to make it happen because they can't afford not to have the euro offering for political reasons if nothing else.

I agree on this one France and Germany are a no go they make the project too politically difficult and unpalatable.
We should be looking further afield anyways to help develop defence links and a foothold in other markets.
For me I’d be looking at getting a couple of the following to join and leave it at that.
Japan
South Korea
Australia
Canada
The former 2 other a foothold in the Far East market place along with money
The later 2 other a foothold in the North American market ( 1 of them does ) while offering a smaller injection of cash but helps build close military links building on the T26 start.

I’d also avoid India, they seem to have a lot of problems in defence precurment when it comes to things like corruption. They also seem to swing between the west and Russia when it comes to these things which would make me worry over tempest being kept away from Russia.

[SW1]

Or we could maybe just design the aircraft ourselves like other have very successfully and purchase/develop sub systems from other countries that we can use in a U.K. a/c and they can use on there a/c if they choice to build one. And if another country wants to buy it once built mores the better just design it so they can integrate whatever tech they want onto it.

[Lord Jim]

I am sure the Franco/German programme will result in a new platform(S) but at a cost, both financially and in the number procured. There could also be major duplication with production taking place in both countries. Spain on the other hand may jump ship sometime down the line, retaining any workshare as a result of its investment but not taking part in the production element. Instead it may go for a cheaper alternative.

[inch]

Spain defiantly should be buying a few f35b to replace the harrier on the Juan Carlos 1 ,bit of a mad policy tbh in with france and Germany ,as they definitely not going to be building a v take off variant of there new plane defo on that score ,unless Spain planning to build a conventional carrier replacement and leave jc1 for helo in future ?,but yes tempest/ f35b mix would suit them better I think but politically EU big 2 would never allow them to do this

[Ron5]

Or we could maybe just design the aircraft ourselves like other have very successfully and purchase/develop sub systems from other countries that we can use in a U.K. a/c and they can use on there a/c if they choice to build one. And if another country wants to buy it once built mores the better just design it so they can integrate whatever tech they want onto it.

Lego

[Pseudo]

On another forum a million miles away, a Japanese speaker says that in the 2021 Japanese Defense budget there is a line item for a joint Japanese-UK project for wide area radar with a budget line of 4 billion yen (about $40m I think).

Any idea what this is and is it related to tempest?

Is it maybe for the JNAAM Anglo-Japanese advanced Meteor missile which pretty much seems to be a Meteor with a Japanese AESA seeker?

[Timmymagic]

Is it maybe for the JNAAM Anglo-Japanese advanced Meteor missile which pretty much seems to be a Meteor with a Japanese AESA seeker

Just posted on the MBDA thread the update on JNAAM from Janes. According to them its $11.4m for JNAAM so unless there is a multi year budget mentioned for it elsewhere, it doesnt appear to be for the same thing.

[Ares]

On another forum a million miles away, a Japanese speaker says that in the 2021 Japanese Defense budget there is a line item for a joint Japanese-UK project for wide area radar with a budget line of 4 billion yen (about $40m I think).

Any idea what this is and is it related to tempest?

It's a continuous effort of the joint research on the "New RF sensor system" that started back in 2018. Looks like the feasibility study is successfully finished, and next year's requested budget is for building a full-scale radar prototype. It named "High-function radar" in Japanese. I'm sure Japan's next-generation fighter as well as Tempest will use this technology.







While conventional AESA radars used in fighters control a single beam quickly for detection, this radar emits multiple consecutive beams simultaneously in a wide range of directions, making it easier to cope with high-speed low RCS targets.

You'll understand the difference when you watch these videos that visualized modern AESA radars work.

[Ron5]

Thank you, most interesting. I would imagine a great deal of new software required.

[military]

For a basic comparison, I quickly found the total development budget for the US Small Diameter Bomb Increment II / StormBreaker. It is $2.1 billion in US dollars. In addition, the procurement cost is $3.3 billion. By comparison, $11 million for JNAAM seems like a trivial investment. I am not sure what is going on with the JNAAM programme. Maybe this prototype will just test airworthiness and the real development costs come later.

[ArmChairCivvy]

$11 million for JNAAM seems like a trivial investment.

It's just a better seeker head... how can it take so long?
- perhaps putting an AESA into the size of a cigar box is a challenge

[Ares]

For a basic comparison, I quickly found the total development budget for the US Small Diameter Bomb Increment II / StormBreaker. It is $2.1 billion in US dollars. In addition, the procurement cost is $3.3 billion. By comparison, $11 million for JNAAM seems like a trivial investment. I am not sure what is going on with the JNAAM programme. Maybe this prototype will just test airworthiness and the real development costs come later.

It is not the procurement cost, but the budget for prototyping of a single JNAAM to be used for actual launch test at the end of 2022.
Japan MOD is assuming ¥12.5B($1.2B) for development only, excluding production costs.

[Ron5]

Here's the picture that Jane's shows of the UK/Japanese Meteor. I was a little surprised it doesn't have the clipped wings of the F-35B variant. Or am I mistaken on that?

[Ares]

Here's the picture that Jane's shows of the UK/Japanese Meteor. I was a little surprised it doesn't have the clipped wings of the F-35B variant. Or am I mistaken on that?

The image is just a place-holder.

[Timmymagic]

Here's the picture that Jane's shows of the UK/Japanese Meteor. I was a little surprised it doesn't have the clipped wings of the F-35B variant. Or am I mistaken on that?

Never seen an image of the clipped wings variant. Don't think MBDA have ever released any images of it.

It is not the procurement cost, but the budget for prototyping of a single JNAAM to be used for actual launch test at the end of 2022.
Japan MOD is assuming ¥12.5B($1.2B) for development only, excluding production costs.

Quite surprised by that figure. Thats a huge amount of money for the integration of a seeker that already exists (although it does involve some minituarisation and a new GaN array). The Meteor does have a smaller diameter of its missile body than AAM-4B, perhaps 'squeezing' it all in is where the cost is. Japanese military development programmes are well known for their high cost however.

For a basic comparison, I quickly found the total development budget for the US Small Diameter Bomb Increment II / StormBreaker. It is $2.1 billion in US dollars.

It's not a surprise, but when you add up the cost to develop Brimstone and then Spear (which is reliant on Brimstone tech) you won't be far off the same value. It's one of the reasons that I'm always a little doubtful of weapons developed by other nations that come with extravagant claims but don't seem to have the development budget devoted to them to achieve those goals (especially testing..). Quite a few Israeli wonder weapons fall in that category..the ones that have pushed the boundaries tend to have taken decades to field and develop (Spike and Delilah), be based on work the US has already spent a bundle of cash on then abandoned or have had extensive US support in development, financing, partnering and testing (Iron Dome, Arrow).