Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

[SW1]

I think caution is needed when generalising around radar cross section. It very much depends about what frequency ranges the reduction is in and in what azimuths and in all Tactical fighter aircraft it will be limited.

B2 remains the exemplar in the this category for aircraft generally known about.

[SW1]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the ... overeignty

[Timmymagic]

Posted this in the Reaction Engines thread, but thought it would be useful here as well...looks like RR and Reaction Engines are moving forward. Although it mentions Supersonic and Hypersonic flight regimes I suspect the Reaction Engines technologies principal role in Tempest developments will be mainly in thermal management, which should in turn lead to higher speeds due to higher core temps being possible.

[Jensy]

Posted this in the Reaction Engines thread, but thought it would be useful here as well...looks like RR and Reaction Engines are moving forward. Although it mentions Supersonic and Hypersonic flight regimes I suspect the Reaction Engines technologies principal role in Tempest developments will be mainly in thermal management, which should in turn lead to higher speeds due to higher core temps being possible.

Great news for all involved but especially Reaction Engines.

Once again Rolls-Royce seems to be using images of a somewhat different looking Temptest concept than BAE. There was some talk, months back, of how people would be 'suprised' at Farnborough by how much the design had evolved.

Obviously that didn't happen but would be interesting to see what direction the concept is heading in.

[Jensy]

Seems my above curiosity is well placed.



In the Telegraph:

BAE Systems has begun supersonic wind tunnel tests of potential designs for the Tempest fighter hoped to be in service with the RAF in 2035.

Engineers at the defence giant’s base in Warton, Lancashire, are examining the aerodynamic performance of a series of 3D-printed models of what the next-generation stealth jet might finally look like.

Full (£) article: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... cond-wind/

Copied below:

BAE Systems has begun supersonic wind tunnel tests of potential designs for the Tempest fighter hoped to be in service with the RAF in 2035.

Engineers at the defence giant’s base in Warton, Lancashire, are examining the aerodynamic performance of a 
series of 3D-printed models of what the next-generation stealth jet might finally look like.

The wind tunnel can generate airflows of twice the speed of sound and consumes 15 tons of air in 20 seconds when running at full power.

Data from the models will be used to produce the final design for Tempest, but the work is proceeding faster than earlier aircraft development projects thanks to “digital twin” technology.

Designs have already been extensively tested in the digital world, meaning that concepts can be advanced or abandoned depending on how virtual versions perform before moving on to more time-consuming and costly real-world testing.

So far £2bn has been committed to Tempest by government and a consortium of leading aerospace and defence companies including BAE, Rolls-Royce, Leonardo and MBDA, which 
together have almost 2,000 engineers working on it.

The aircraft is expected to operate with a pilot or autonomously and be equipped with “directed energy weapons” such as lasers. These will require immense amounts of power and cooling. The companies from outside the military world have been brought in for their expertise, as well as to speed up work to meet the programme’s 
ambitious deadlines.

One of the most recent to come on board is Williams Advanced Engineering, the company spun off from the Williams Formula One team. Its knowledge from developing high-performance batteries used in the Formula E electric racing series will help provide power for Tempest. Britain is not working on Tempest alone. So far Italy and Sweden have signed up, with Japan also a candidate to join the project.

[SW1]

Similar article in flight

https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/te ... 8U.twitter

[The Armchair Soldier]

[bobp]

I wonder how affordable this will be?

[inch]

Probably not very if we can't attract some other major investors like Japan , Australia,Canada, Saudi etc ( just throwing a few names in the mix but not exclusive ) but hopefully not France/Germany ,that would be a very sad day / admission that UK plc can't attract other major countries without France German help

[Ron5]

I wonder how affordable this will be?

Is the political will to build it strong enough? If that's there, all else falls into place.

[Jensy]

You wait five months for a decent defence story and then three come along...

Britain may halve fighter jet purchases

In The Times(£): https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news ... -nk2hfns8c

- Suggested RAF/RN to stop procuring F-35 after 70,
- 70 considered a 'credible minimum order',
- Funds to be channeled into Typhoon upgrades and Temptest.

Discussions are said to be continuing about how to balance investment in the American-designed jets that are state-of-the-art and in production, with channelling funding into Tempest, a next-generation fighter jet programme led by the UK that is at an early stage.

I doubt this is news to anyone on this site. However the infographic (supposedly based on RAF data) is very interesting if the speed and combat radius are even vaguely accurate (the F-35s spec aren't):

A third factor in Britain’s combat air-power funding equation is a scheme to upgrade the RAF’s Typhoon fighter jets with the latest technology. In the longer term the aim is for the Tempest jet, which is due to come into service from 2035, to replace Typhoons when they are phased out of service from the late 2030s.

However, a defence source emphasised last night that no final decisions in the review had been taken. “With every review it is always the case that people draw early and false conclusions from leaks. We advise against making assumptions based on partial information,” the source said. “The guiding principle of the [integrated review] is to ask ourselves what the threat is, and whether we have the capability to meet it.”

[Timmymagic]

I doubt this is news to anyone on this site. However the infographic (supposedly based on RAF data) is very interesting if the speed and combat radius are even vaguely accurate (the F-35s spec aren't):

Top speed m2.3 would be sensible given the internal bay and high thrust engines...

But lower all up weight than F-35? For double the range? Hmmm.....

[Jensy]

I doubt this is news to anyone on this site. However the infographic (supposedly based on RAF data) is very interesting if the speed and combat radius are even vaguely accurate (the F-35s spec aren't):

Top speed m2.3 would be sensible given the internal bay and high thrust engines...

But lower all up weight than F-35? For double the range? Hmmm.....

Well at present the mock-up is only made of plastic, so pretty light weight!

Have recently been reading up on some of the aircraft designs that led to TSR-2. Actually amazing how similar some of the late 50's and early 60's concepts were in terms of capability, payload and even layout. Just fewer v-tails...

[jedibeeftrix]

are the weight figures comparable?

surprised tempest weighs less given that it is physically bigger and has longer range (fuel capacity)...

[SW1]

Wouldnt read anything into numbers quoted in newspapers about an a/c early in development.

Though Interestingly the size numbers given aren’t a million miles away from the buccaneer maybe they googled the wrong a/c

[NickC]

I doubt this is news to anyone on this site. However the infographic (supposedly based on RAF data) is very interesting if the speed and combat radius are even vaguely accurate (the F-35s spec aren't):

Top speed m2.3 would be sensible given the internal bay and high thrust engines...

But lower all up weight than F-35? For double the range? Hmmm.....

Don't know if F-35 figures accurate but it gives an indication of the weight penalty incurred by a VTOL F-35B vs conventional F-35A
Empty weight 14,651 kg vs 13,290 kg +1,361 kg
Fuel capacity 6,125 kg vs 8,278 kg, - 2,153 kg, RAAF quote max range of F-35A 2,200 km / 1,367 miles

Also VTOL a/c machinery, engine etc use substantial internal volume, as a consequence the F-35B weapons bay smaller than the F-35A's

As you say Tempest combat radius quoted as 1,988 miles looks dubious, a max range figure? maybe using EFTs

[SD67]

You wait five months for a decent defence story and then three come along...

Britain may halve fighter jet purchases

In The Times(£): https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news ... -nk2hfns8c

- Suggested RAF/RN to stop procuring F-35 after 70,
- 70 considered a 'credible minimum order',
- Funds to be channeled into Typhoon upgrades and Temptest.

Discussions are said to be continuing about how to balance investment in the American-designed jets that are state-of-the-art and in production, with channelling funding into Tempest, a next-generation fighter jet programme led by the UK that is at an early stage.

I doubt this is news to anyone on this site. However the infographic (supposedly based on RAF data) is very interesting if the speed and combat radius are even vaguely accurate (the F-35s spec aren't):

A third factor in Britain’s combat air-power funding equation is a scheme to upgrade the RAF’s Typhoon fighter jets with the latest technology. In the longer term the aim is for the Tempest jet, which is due to come into service from 2035, to replace Typhoons when they are phased out of service from the late 2030s.

However, a defence source emphasised last night that no final decisions in the review had been taken. “With every review it is always the case that people draw early and false conclusions from leaks. We advise against making assumptions based on partial information,” the source said. “The guiding principle of the [integrated review] is to ask ourselves what the threat is, and whether we have the capability to meet it.”

Sounds very sensible to me. 70 for the carriers, should be delivered by 2030, then that frees up budget in the 2030s for industrialisation of Tempest. And if circumstances change, the F35 production line will still be there as a backup.

[Jensy]

Wouldnt read anything into numbers quoted in newspapers about an a/c early in development.

Though Interestingly the size numbers given aren’t a million miles away from the buccaneer maybe they googled the wrong a/c

Careful with the Bucc mentions, you'll get certain people (myself included) suggesting a STOBAR variant and fitting the carriers with traps...

I'm pleasantly surprised we haven't yet seen an image of a Hawker Typhoon in any news coverage...

As you say Tempest combat radius quoted as 1,988 miles looks dubious, a max range figure? maybe using EFTs

Sounds right, was thinking either ferry range or an unarmed recon mission, in permissive airspace, with every spare inch dedicated to fuel storage. Otherwise we're talking about an F-15 sized platform with the range of a Tupolev Tu-160, which is very enticing but even with futuristic hybrid engines and amazing fuel efficiency seems nearly impossible to achieve.

Sounds very sensible to me. 70 for the carriers, should be delivered by 2030, then that frees up budget in the 2030s for industrialisation of Tempest. And if circumstances change, the F35 production line will still be there as a backup.

We're really quite fortunate (for now) that we have a decent involvement in three of the latest fighter jets (Gripen/Typhoon/F-35). It gives us a level of insurance if circumstances change substantially in either of the two that we're acquiring (for example a breakdown in the Eurofighter consortium or American isolationism lowering our work-share further).

[SKB]

How about a Sea Tempest for QE and PoW ?!

[Jensy]

How about a Sea Tempest for QE and PoW ?!

'Lord Admiral West likes this post'

Only practical way I can see that happening is if we get India onboard. Can't see any other prospective customer apart from ourselves (at a push) having the requirement...

[inch]

If that's the case we would may as well just go with France and Germany as they going to build carrier version ,so let's not .

[Timmymagic]

Sounds right, was thinking either ferry range or an unarmed recon mission, in permissive airspace, with every spare inch dedicated to fuel storage. Otherwise we're talking about an F-15 sized platform with the range of a Tupolev Tu-160, which is very enticing but even with futuristic hybrid engines and amazing fuel efficiency seems nearly impossible to achieve.

I think they might be getting range and radius mixed up for the Tempest figure....a radius of half the range figure given for Tempest is what we need to be aiming for. 1,000 miles combat radius with an internal weapon load is perfectly feasible (and the Buccaneer could do that 60 years ago...). But....the dimensions listed there are exactly F-22 size, which has a maximum weight of 84,000lb's, and a shorter radius of action. So something doesn't add up...

If we managed to build an F-22 size aircraft with more range, similar speed and a larger weapons bay I would be very happy...but surprised.

[Ron5]

I'm seeing a slightly different graphic. Same bullshit numbers which makes me wonder about people here referring to them



By the way if you read Lucy Fishers' history of articles, you'll see she makes a habit of writing inaccurate rubbish. The Times has sunk a long, long way down.

[Ron5]

Don't know if F-35 figures accurate but it gives an indication of the weight penalty incurred by a VTOL F-35B vs conventional F-35A
Empty weight 14,651 kg vs 13,290 kg +1,361 kg
Fuel capacity 6,125 kg vs 8,278 kg, - 2,153 kg, RAAF quote max range of F-35A 2,200 km / 1,367 miles

Also VTOL a/c machinery, engine etc use substantial internal volume, as a consequence the F-35B weapons bay smaller than the F-35A's

Why drag in your F-35B hatred to this thread?? Totally irrelevant.

[shark bait]

I wonder how affordable this will be?

Yeah the Brits need to show a bit of restraint here otherwise they'll only be able to afford 5.

There's already capable engines, radars and weapons in the real world, so show some restraint wrap the existing stuff up in a new software focused, low observable package.