Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5657
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SW1 »

I could see a situation were batteries replace the apu and to provide power for onboard systems. There already being used in modern aircraft for engine start.

Think we’re likely to see a synthetic fuel used before too long. Anything that reduces the requirement on fuel volumes at deployed locations is gd a goal to have.

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7249
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Ron5 »

SKB wrote:Hmm. BAE Systems has a partnership with Williams Advanced Engineering (WAE), it specialises in batteries for Formula E cars.
https://www.wae.com/news/2020/07/motors ... evelopment
https://www.wae.com/what-we-do/case-studies/bae-systems

A controlling majority share of WAE was sold by Williams Grand Prix Holdings plc in December 2019 to a private equity firm. It continues to use the "Williams" name under licence.
https://www.businessinnovationmag.co.uk ... -business/
I don't suppose that private equity firm gets its money from China?


User avatar
Jensy
Senior Member
Posts: 1061
Joined: 05 Aug 2016, 19:44
United Kingdom

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Jensy »

Ron5 wrote: I don't suppose that private equity firm gets its money from China?
Could be but the racing industry is also quite heavily owned by wealthy Gulf investment groups who favour anonymity.

User avatar
Pseudo
Senior Member
Posts: 1732
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 21:37
Tuvalu

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Pseudo »

Is it just me or do the weapons bays not look particularly big?

ETA: Oh, never mind. Just noticed the under-wing side bays.

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5657
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SW1 »

Pseudo wrote:
Is it just me or do the weapons bays not look particularly big?
I wouldn’t read a whole lot into the graphical representations of such things at this stage.

User avatar
Pseudo
Senior Member
Posts: 1732
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 21:37
Tuvalu

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Pseudo »

SW1 wrote:
Pseudo wrote:
Is it just me or do the weapons bays not look particularly big?
I wouldn’t read a whole lot into the graphical representations of such things at this stage.
Oh, yeah. The whole thing might end up looking a lot different, just making an off-hand comment.

Though I've just noticed it has under-wing SRAAM side-bays, so there's a bit more than I first thought. Depending on the depth of the ventral bays there might be enough room for eight Meteors with something along the lines of the F-35's Sidekick, and 8 x Meteor's and 2 x ASRAAM's would be a pretty fearsome loadout.

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5657
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SW1 »

Pseudo wrote:
SW1 wrote:
Pseudo wrote:
Is it just me or do the weapons bays not look particularly big?
I wouldn’t read a whole lot into the graphical representations of such things at this stage.
Oh, yeah. The whole thing might end up looking a lot different, just making an off-hand comment.

Though I've just noticed it has under-wing SRAAM side-bays, so there's a bit more than I first thought. Depending on the depth of the ventral bays there might be enough room for eight Meteors with something along the lines of the F-35's Sidekick, and 8 x Meteor's and 2 x ASRAAM's would be a pretty fearsome loadout.
Given the size of the aircraft depending on how you integrate the landing gear and engine inlet ducts you could in theory end up with a bomb bay of buccaneer size.

User avatar
Pseudo
Senior Member
Posts: 1732
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 21:37
Tuvalu

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Pseudo »

SW1 wrote:
Pseudo wrote:
SW1 wrote:
Pseudo wrote:
Is it just me or do the weapons bays not look particularly big?
I wouldn’t read a whole lot into the graphical representations of such things at this stage.
Oh, yeah. The whole thing might end up looking a lot different, just making an off-hand comment.

Though I've just noticed it has under-wing SRAAM side-bays, so there's a bit more than I first thought. Depending on the depth of the ventral bays there might be enough room for eight Meteors with something along the lines of the F-35's Sidekick, and 8 x Meteor's and 2 x ASRAAM's would be a pretty fearsome loadout.
Given the size of the aircraft depending on how you integrate the landing gear and engine inlet ducts you could in theory end up with a bomb bay of buccaneer size.
Fair point. I hope they don't make any massive changes to the basic design because I really love the look of that plane.

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5657
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SW1 »

Pseudo wrote:Fair point. I hope they don't make any massive changes to the basic design because I really love the look of that plane.
If they do, do it I hope they have the were with all to go all in with eyes wide open of what is needed because it really is last chance saloon.

User avatar
Pseudo
Senior Member
Posts: 1732
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 21:37
Tuvalu

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Pseudo »

SW1 wrote:
Pseudo wrote:Fair point. I hope they don't make any massive changes to the basic design because I really love the look of that plane.
If they do, do it I hope they have the were with all to go all in with eyes wide open of what is needed because it really is last chance saloon.
I think that whatever happens with Tempest it'll be the last manned combat jet project that the UK leads.

User avatar
Jensy
Senior Member
Posts: 1061
Joined: 05 Aug 2016, 19:44
United Kingdom

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Jensy »

Pseudo wrote:I hope they don't make any massive changes to the basic design because I really love the look of that plane.
It's looking fantastic. Like a miniature, futuristic Vulcan with some F-15/Su-34 features.

If things weren't are tight as they are and the RAF was rolling in money, I'd love see them upscale the design and offer a medium bomber sized variant!

dmereifield
Senior Member
Posts: 2762
Joined: 03 Aug 2016, 20:29
United Kingdom

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by dmereifield »

Jensy wrote:
Pseudo wrote:I hope they don't make any massive changes to the basic design because I really love the look of that plane.
It's looking fantastic. Like a miniature, futuristic Vulcan with some F-15/Su-34 features.

If things weren't are tight as they are and the RAF was rolling in money, I'd love see them upscale the design and offer a medium bomber sized variant!
Things are so tight its doubtful we can even afford this as a fighter! I'd love to be wrong and see HMG really get behind this and put serious money on the table to support it. It should be at least part funded through innovation and tech development grants to supplement the MoD funding

User avatar
Pseudo
Senior Member
Posts: 1732
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 21:37
Tuvalu

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Pseudo »

dmereifield wrote:
Jensy wrote:
Pseudo wrote:I hope they don't make any massive changes to the basic design because I really love the look of that plane.
It's looking fantastic. Like a miniature, futuristic Vulcan with some F-15/Su-34 features.

If things weren't are tight as they are and the RAF was rolling in money, I'd love see them upscale the design and offer a medium bomber sized variant!
Things are so tight its doubtful we can even afford this as a fighter! I'd love to be wrong and see HMG really get behind this and put serious money on the table to support it. It should be at least part funded through innovation and tech development grants to supplement the MoD funding
Indeed. Unless it's intended to replace the F-35 as well then I struggle to see enough examples being required by Italy and the UK to justify the costs, even with Sweden paying in as a technology partner. I'm tending is to think that they're going push sales in the middle east. Given the US' unwillingness to sell 5th generation combat aircraft to the likes of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Oman and Kuwait that would seem like the obvious export market target, particularly given that Germany won't be keen on exporting FCAS in that region any further south than Cairo.

User avatar
SKB
Senior Member
Posts: 7931
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:35
England

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SKB »

Image
(UKDJ)
Is that a huge airbrake flap on the top of the 3D Tempest? There appears to be a hinge halfway along the fuselage between cockpit and tail, with "flap" seams going all the way back to between the twin tails.

Behind the cockpit too is a pair of small stealthy sawtooth doors which reminds me of the additional upper air intake doors of an F-35B.

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5657
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SW1 »

Or are they planning a change to the method of refuelling...

dmereifield
Senior Member
Posts: 2762
Joined: 03 Aug 2016, 20:29
United Kingdom

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by dmereifield »

Pseudo wrote:
dmereifield wrote:
Jensy wrote:
Pseudo wrote:I hope they don't make any massive changes to the basic design because I really love the look of that plane.
It's looking fantastic. Like a miniature, futuristic Vulcan with some F-15/Su-34 features.

If things weren't are tight as they are and the RAF was rolling in money, I'd love see them upscale the design and offer a medium bomber sized variant!
Things are so tight its doubtful we can even afford this as a fighter! I'd love to be wrong and see HMG really get behind this and put serious money on the table to support it. It should be at least part funded through innovation and tech development grants to supplement the MoD funding
Indeed. Unless it's intended to replace the F-35 as well then I struggle to see enough examples being required by Italy and the UK to justify the costs, even with Sweden paying in as a technology partner. I'm tending is to think that they're going push sales in the middle east. Given the US' unwillingness to sell 5th generation combat aircraft to the likes of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Oman and Kuwait that would seem like the obvious export market target, particularly given that Germany won't be keen on exporting FCAS in that region any further south than Cairo.
Interesting point, looks like a niche market there that's unlikely to be serviced by the US or FCAS (although the French will fight Germany hard to avoid export bans), as you say, and those countries also unlikely to go with Russia or China...would it be worth bringing some of those nations onboard to Team Tempest to lay the ground work?

Scimitar54
Senior Member
Posts: 1701
Joined: 13 Jul 2015, 05:10
United Kingdom

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Scimitar54 »

Perhaps many would and possibly as many would not; like to see it called Tempest Strike & Reconnaissance III (TSR3). :mrgreen:

User avatar
Pseudo
Senior Member
Posts: 1732
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 21:37
Tuvalu

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Pseudo »

dmereifield wrote:
Pseudo wrote:
dmereifield wrote:
Jensy wrote:
Pseudo wrote:I hope they don't make any massive changes to the basic design because I really love the look of that plane.
It's looking fantastic. Like a miniature, futuristic Vulcan with some F-15/Su-34 features.

If things weren't are tight as they are and the RAF was rolling in money, I'd love see them upscale the design and offer a medium bomber sized variant!
Things are so tight its doubtful we can even afford this as a fighter! I'd love to be wrong and see HMG really get behind this and put serious money on the table to support it. It should be at least part funded through innovation and tech development grants to supplement the MoD funding
Indeed. Unless it's intended to replace the F-35 as well then I struggle to see enough examples being required by Italy and the UK to justify the costs, even with Sweden paying in as a technology partner. I'm tending is to think that they're going push sales in the middle east. Given the US' unwillingness to sell 5th generation combat aircraft to the likes of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Oman and Kuwait that would seem like the obvious export market target, particularly given that Germany won't be keen on exporting FCAS in that region any further south than Cairo.
Interesting point, looks like a niche market there that's unlikely to be serviced by the US or FCAS (although the French will fight Germany hard to avoid export bans), as you say, and those countries also unlikely to go with Russia or China...would it be worth bringing some of those nations onboard to Team Tempest to lay the ground work?
Pretty early on in this thread I said that I thought the best development partner for the Uk would be Saudi Arabia because they have a lot of money and little relevant expertise so it would be as close as the UK could get to someone handing them a big bag of money and telling them to get on with it. :lol:

User avatar
Pseudo
Senior Member
Posts: 1732
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 21:37
Tuvalu

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Pseudo »

SKB wrote:Is that a huge airbrake flap on the top of the 3D Tempest? There appears to be a hinge halfway along the fuselage between cockpit and tail, with "flap" seams going all the way back to between the twin tails.

Behind the cockpit too is a pair of small stealthy sawtooth doors which reminds me of the additional upper air intake doors of an F-35B.
Image
Just sayin'. :o :P

User avatar
SKB
Senior Member
Posts: 7931
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:35
England

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SKB »

:wtf: :roll:

bobp
Senior Member
Posts: 2684
Joined: 06 May 2015, 07:52
United Kingdom

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by bobp »

Pseudo wrote:Behind the cockpit too is a pair of small stealthy sawtooth doors which reminds me of the additional upper air intake doors of an F-35B.
No chance of VTOL though

dmereifield
Senior Member
Posts: 2762
Joined: 03 Aug 2016, 20:29
United Kingdom

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by dmereifield »

Pseudo wrote:
dmereifield wrote:
Pseudo wrote:
dmereifield wrote:
Jensy wrote:
Pseudo wrote:I hope they don't make any massive changes to the basic design because I really love the look of that plane.
It's looking fantastic. Like a miniature, futuristic Vulcan with some F-15/Su-34 features.

If things weren't are tight as they are and the RAF was rolling in money, I'd love see them upscale the design and offer a medium bomber sized variant!
Things are so tight its doubtful we can even afford this as a fighter! I'd love to be wrong and see HMG really get behind this and put serious money on the table to support it. It should be at least part funded through innovation and tech development grants to supplement the MoD funding
Indeed. Unless it's intended to replace the F-35 as well then I struggle to see enough examples being required by Italy and the UK to justify the costs, even with Sweden paying in as a technology partner. I'm tending is to think that they're going push sales in the middle east. Given the US' unwillingness to sell 5th generation combat aircraft to the likes of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Oman and Kuwait that would seem like the obvious export market target, particularly given that Germany won't be keen on exporting FCAS in that region any further south than Cairo.
Interesting point, looks like a niche market there that's unlikely to be serviced by the US or FCAS (although the French will fight Germany hard to avoid export bans), as you say, and those countries also unlikely to go with Russia or China...would it be worth bringing some of those nations onboard to Team Tempest to lay the ground work?
Pretty early on in this thread I said that I thought the best development partner for the Uk would be Saudi Arabia because they have a lot of money and little relevant expertise so it would be as close as the UK could get to someone handing them a big bag of money and telling them to get on with it. :lol:
Oh yes, I guess, in theory - though in practice given the politics (and ethics) the UK Government surely wouldn't want to (officially, overtly) partner with SA? Qatar, Oman, Kuwait et al. Is a different matter, and between them, they could provide a large chunk of change and place a sizable order (ca. 60-100 airframes?)

User avatar
Pseudo
Senior Member
Posts: 1732
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 21:37
Tuvalu

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Pseudo »

dmereifield wrote:
Pseudo wrote:Pretty early on in this thread I said that I thought the best development partner for the Uk would be Saudi Arabia because they have a lot of money and little relevant expertise so it would be as close as the UK could get to someone handing them a big bag of money and telling them to get on with it. :lol:
Oh yes, I guess, in theory - though in practice given the politics (and ethics) the UK Government surely wouldn't want to (officially, overtly) partner with SA? Qatar, Oman, Kuwait et al. Is a different matter, and between them, they could provide a large chunk of change and place a sizable order (ca. 60-100 airframes?)
I think that the problem with placing an order for an aircraft that doesn't yet exist is that it's all risk and few rewards. There's no guarantee that the project will come to fruition or if it does that it'll meet their requirements. Then what happens if the developer comes to them asking for more money? Finally, even if it does come to fruition and meet their requirements, despite taking those big risks they don't get a share of the profits from their investment.

dmereifield
Senior Member
Posts: 2762
Joined: 03 Aug 2016, 20:29
United Kingdom

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by dmereifield »

Pseudo wrote:
dmereifield wrote:
Pseudo wrote:Pretty early on in this thread I said that I thought the best development partner for the Uk would be Saudi Arabia because they have a lot of money and little relevant expertise so it would be as close as the UK could get to someone handing them a big bag of money and telling them to get on with it. :lol:
Oh yes, I guess, in theory - though in practice given the politics (and ethics) the UK Government surely wouldn't want to (officially, overtly) partner with SA? Qatar, Oman, Kuwait et al. Is a different matter, and between them, they could provide a large chunk of change and place a sizable order (ca. 60-100 airframes?)
I think that the problem with placing an order for an aircraft that doesn't yet exist is that it's all risk and few rewards. There's no guarantee that the project will come to fruition or if it does that it'll meet their requirements. Then what happens if the developer comes to them asking for more money? Finally, even if it does come to fruition and meet their requirements, despite taking those big risks they don't get a share of the profits from their investment.
Sorry, didn't mean to suggest an order pre development, merely that if they were included as partners in the project and that it led to the development of a viable aircraft that between the nations there would be a reasonable sized order

Post Reply