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Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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bobp
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby bobp » 07 Mar 2020, 08:26

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Hard to see a red line run through any of those activities/ capabilities?


Anything is possible I am afraid with the way the Government run the ship.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SW1 » 07 Mar 2020, 09:13

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Cooper wrote upthread, in his own style, what the Tempest prgrm is about :thumbup: .

The SDSR will have to formulate the rationale that sits in the difference between these numbers:
" bobp wrote:
Hope though that the number doesn't stop at 48


[and Timmymagic then]
Got a feeling it might...

72 would be good," When the choice of plane was defended, it was not for carriers (their credibility) only, which is the 48 number.

It was also about RAF Alpha Strike/ First Day of War (we last had that in Libya, and had to call Uncle Sam), which at the minimum means SEAD/DEAD as without any such capability another key mission - interdiction, as opposed to CAS - will go down the toilet.
- add in the early years of OCU, which partly (when talking about a/c numbers) then can transfer planes to the attrition reserve and sensible rotation of the fleet, to evenly distribute the flying hours and thereby the expected life of the fleet, in calendar years
... so that's the 72 number

Hard to see a red line run through any of those activities/ capabilities?


Not sure why you think any of these mission are the sole preserve of f35.

The economics of f35 are supposed to work based on significant use of simulators for training it will remain to be seen if it’s true.

So I’m not sure how you arrive at 72 as the number.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Old RN » 07 Mar 2020, 09:27

My number of F35Bs that the is needed (ideally) is 72. 24 on the deployed CVF and 12 assigned to the CVF in the training cycle with 36 remaining consisting of two squadrons (24) assigned to OCU and training. The balance (12) being in development and deep maintenance.

With 72 total it would allow the two CVF to surge to close to the 36 design level in "Falklands 2.0" or load one CVF to its actual practical capacity of 50+.

inch
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby inch » 07 Mar 2020, 09:35

Could it be just 48 in total and sell one carrier ?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby dmereifield » 07 Mar 2020, 12:37

inch wrote:Could it be just 48 in total and sell one carrier ?


How does that work with HMGs global Britain vision? No large visible cuts like that, or anything that would cause such reputational damage with key allies, is forthcoming

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Ron5 » 07 Mar 2020, 15:06

Cooper wrote:FFS, the pathetic defeatism on display in this thread is just that, pathetic.

Tempest is about keeping alive a fully sovereign capability alive in dozens of areas related to high tech military aerospace for decades to come and keeping hold of tens of thousands, proabably hundreds of thousands of jobs and expertise that once lost, will be gone forever.

The economics of the endeavour are of a secondary concern.

Project Tempest never was, or ever has been, reliant on Japan becoming part of the developer nations to proceed.

..and we sure as fuck won't join the French/German FCAS project.


Agree with your comment a 100% but would like to add that the traditional main reason for the UK's love for international partners was that it made projects harder to cancel.

With the UK's Punch & Judy two party system, it used to be hard for any lengthy project to survive the inevitable change in governments over their lifetimes. And with one party seemingly taking their orders from Moscow, purely national projects were picked off one after the other. It was something of a major miracle the carriers survived. The RN played a blinder.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 07 Mar 2020, 16:56

"So I’m not sure how you arrive at 72 as the number."

Old RN wrote:My number of F35Bs that the is needed (ideally) is 72. 24


I was sure there was going to be a good response, so I burst out laughing... until I realised that rather than a decimal point, it was :!: a full stop.

To continue from a few posts up, "nothing" is exclusively for stealth a/c, but their survivability in doing certain types of missions could be way better than that of older types.
- like the early F-22s had similar upgradeability issues as did out Tr1 tiffies
... and it made it all the way to the Congress, a proposal to make best use of them in a purely SEAD role

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SD67 » 07 Mar 2020, 19:07

Cooper wrote:FFS, the pathetic defeatism on display in this thread is just that, pathetic.

Tempest is about keeping alive a fully sovereign capability alive in dozens of areas related to high tech military aerospace for decades to come and keeping hold of tens of thousands, proabably hundreds of thousands of jobs and expertise that once lost, will be gone forever.

The economics of the endeavour are of a secondary concern.

Project Tempest never was, or ever has been, reliant on Japan becoming part of the developer nations to proceed.

..and we sure as fuck won't join the French/German FCAS project.


Totally agree. I completely don’t get the defeatism. Japan was a nice to have.

In Italy and Sweden we have arguably a better partnership than we had with typhoon. By mid 2020s typhoon deliveries will be well and truly completed and f35 getting close to 48. So f35 likely tops out around 72 units and Tempest simply takes their budget line from around 2030.

If tempest didn’t exist what exactly would we use for frontline air defence in the mid 2030s? Buy American off the shelf? With no competition they’d be charging monopoly prices.

You don’t assign 2500 people to a pure technology research project

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Ron5 » 07 Mar 2020, 19:27

SD67 wrote:With no competition they’d be charging monopoly prices.


You can apply that same comment to Tempest :D

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Lord Jim » 07 Mar 2020, 20:28

SD67 wrote:You don’t assign 2500 people to a pure technology research project

You do if you want to retain their skills but have nothing else or better for them to do!

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby RetroSicotte » 11 Mar 2020, 18:36


dmereifield
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby dmereifield » 12 Mar 2020, 00:00

Interesting

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Ron5 » 12 Mar 2020, 00:20

UK as stalking horse?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby dmereifield » 12 Mar 2020, 06:33

Probably, sadly

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 12 Mar 2020, 08:12

Though the stalking horse is likely to be the bigger picture, Tempest will/ could open a window to how much "others" are behind the US in systems, which in relative importance will trump the raw performance of any future airframe they might be fitted into.

While Typhoon in the air-superiority role due to its superior high altitude performance and thrust to weight ratio, as well as long-range armament, as of today is 'right up there' in a high-and-fast air-superiority role with the F-22, which allegedly is what the Japanese are after, with an extended range [proviso on Typhoon's part] so as to be able to fight such battles far out from their islands
- 'allegedly' in the above also evidenced by the past request for F-22, which was turned down, which memory in turn has given 'the' rationale to spend the extra money this time around to land with 'sovereign' decision powers in how to develop and modify the future fighter over its life span

Having said that, there is nothing to say that Tempest (the a/c) will not turn out more like a 'jack of all trades' F-35 or Rafale, than the Typhoon

Hence the conclusion: Tempest (the prgrm) can open a 'no fixed-cost' window to making sure that the 'inners' of their future fighter will be up to scratch, regardless of
- what the US decides to do,
- how well Japan's own R&D projects will deliver
(and which direction in missions' capability will be prioritised for the tempest design; true swing-role or primary 'something' ?)

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Jake1992 » 12 Mar 2020, 08:28

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Though the stalking horse is likely to be the bigger picture, Tempest will/ could open a window to how much "others" are behind the US in systems, which in relative importance will trump the raw performance of any future airframe they might be fitted into.

While Typhoon in the air-superiority role due to its superior high altitude performance and thrust to weight ratio, as well as long-range armament, as of today is 'right up there' in a high-and-fast air-superiority role with the F-22, which allegedly is what the Japanese are after, with an extended range [proviso on Typhoon's part] so as to be able to fight such battles far out from their islands
- 'allegedly' in the above also evidenced by the past request for F-22, which was turned down, which memory in turn has given 'the' rationale to spend the extra money this time around to land with 'sovereign' decision powers in how to develop and modify the future fighter over its life span

Having said that, there is nothing to say that Tempest (the a/c) will not turn out more like a 'jack of all trades' F-35 or Rafale, than the Typhoon

Hence the conclusion: Tempest (the prgrm) can open a 'no fixed-cost' window to making sure that the 'inners' of their future fighter will be up to scratch, regardless of
- what the US decides to do,
- how well Japan's own R&D projects will deliver
(and which direction in missions' capability will be prioritised for the tempest design; true swing-role or primary 'something' ?)


Isn’t the Typhoon becoming at jack of all trades though with the new focus on ground attack ?

The way I see it’s is both are jack of all trade but with each being more focused in one area such as the Typhoon can do all but it’s key feature is it’s air superiority where the F35 is the opersit with ground attack being key.

Since tempest would be replacing typhoon for us it’d make sense that it follows the same path of being able to do all but with a key focus of air superiority, this should be a nice fit for Japan. For me I see it more of a case in Japan in that are they willing to take that big leap away from the US.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 12 Mar 2020, 08:40

Jake1992 wrote: For me I see it more of a case in Japan in that are they willing to take that big leap away from the US.


Rather: penetrate into the inner sanctum, but also building an escape hatch while you are doing so?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Jake1992 » 12 Mar 2020, 09:06

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Jake1992 wrote: For me I see it more of a case in Japan in that are they willing to take that big leap away from the US.


Rather: penetrate into the inner sanctum, but also building an escape hatch while you are doing so?


I’d say more that Japan has started to become fed up with their reliance on the US in this area and the whole F22 dance stung them hard so are looking at other options that they could take but also wave in the face of the US and say look we are willing to walk away from you now so don’t get to big for your britches.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Ron5 » 12 Mar 2020, 15:03

Jake1992 wrote:
ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Jake1992 wrote: For me I see it more of a case in Japan in that are they willing to take that big leap away from the US.


Rather: penetrate into the inner sanctum, but also building an escape hatch while you are doing so?


I’d say more that Japan has started to become fed up with their reliance on the US in this area and the whole F22 dance stung them hard so are looking at other options that they could take but also wave in the face of the US and say look we are willing to walk away from you now so don’t get to big for your britches.


Not fed up with the US providing nuclear & conventional defense against China.

Regarding Tempest, the Brits can be very useful in helping (wittingly or otherwise) to draft the requirements for the Japanese new fighter. A not so easy task.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Jake1992 » 12 Mar 2020, 15:13

Ron5 wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:
ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Jake1992 wrote: For me I see it more of a case in Japan in that are they willing to take that big leap away from the US.


Rather: penetrate into the inner sanctum, but also building an escape hatch while you are doing so?


I’d say more that Japan has started to become fed up with their reliance on the US in this area and the whole F22 dance stung them hard so are looking at other options that they could take but also wave in the face of the US and say look we are willing to walk away from you now so don’t get to big for your britches.


Not fed up with the US providing nuclear & conventional defense against China.

Regarding Tempest, the Brits can be very useful in helping (wittingly or otherwise) to draft the requirements for the Japanese new fighter. A not so easy task.


There’s a difference between being fed up of being overly reliant on another nation in one particular area especially when it’s bit up ( F22 Saga ) and being fed up of having help or reliance over all. We also have to remember that nuclear umbrella is in the US interest aswell.

2 big nations both developing 6th air craft and trying to court you will be if benefit to Japan, not just using tempest but also what the US are offering. It’d allow them to look at both and pull what they like in each to either develop their own or to wave at each party.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SW1 » 12 Mar 2020, 15:20

So much emphasis being placed on the manned fighter element of tempest, when there is so much more going on than that.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby inch » 12 Mar 2020, 16:01

The thing is I think ? the USA years ahead on this tech and the money they can throw at it which the UK might not be able to match ?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Tempest414 » 12 Mar 2020, 18:43

if the UK is behind the US it dose not matter that much the first task is to try and get on par or in front of Russia and China

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 13 Mar 2020, 05:51

inch wrote: the money they can throw at it which the UK might not be able to match

The money Japan can throw at it is not insignificant... could, cumulatively, be more than what we will/ can commit

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SKB » 13 Mar 2020, 10:48

The US is not 'years ahead'. They just have a blank cheque, whereas we don't. The UK could easily built a 'Tempest' (or whatever this fictional plane would be called) on its own if it had the same advantages of the US military budget.


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