Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
Post Reply
User avatar
AndyC
Member
Posts: 169
Joined: 11 Dec 2015, 10:37
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by AndyC »

The price amounts to U$219 million each!

When we bought 14 Chinook HC6 the contract cost was U$93 million each. That's an awful big jump for a bit of extra range!

The total is more than the Poseidon purchase and considerably more than the total 10 year helicopter equipment budget!!!

About half the amount would actually seem a bit more reasonable.

indeid
Member
Posts: 271
Joined: 21 May 2015, 20:46

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by indeid »

AndyC wrote:The price amounts to U$219 million each!

About half the amount would actually seem a bit more reasonable.
Drop them an email, I'm sure they will listen and recheck the sums if you think they are wrong.

The request doesn't just include the airframes, and the airframes are usually the cheap bit.

serge750
Senior Member
Posts: 1068
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:34
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by serge750 »

Perhaps that price includes full marinization including powered folding blades...
personally I would of preferred V-22 Opreys

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7245
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by Ron5 »

serge750 wrote:Perhaps that price includes full marinization including powered folding blades...
personally I would of preferred V-22 Opreys
I seem to remember from the other day when I looked it up, that the total Japanese V-22 order was for 17 aircraft at $3 billion with all the associated spares & service.

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 7314
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

Could this also include a new support package for the whole Chinook fleet etc. It also means the theoretical purchase of a small number of MV-22s Ospreys for the Special Forces is no longer being looked into. We do need to replace some of the older airframes pretty urgently as some are over 30 years old.

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5656
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

The cost shows just how far up the sophistication scale these aircraft are. The importance of SF operations and there scale going fwd is supported by such an order.

dmereifield
Senior Member
Posts: 2762
Joined: 03 Aug 2016, 20:29
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by dmereifield »

Do special forces need 16? Seems a bit much, as in, they have other plans for them thanjust special forces use....

bobp
Senior Member
Posts: 2684
Joined: 06 May 2015, 07:52
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by bobp »

Judging by the number of guns being ordered I strongly suspect these are SF variants. Two machine guns and two miniguns per Helicopter as well as the long range tanks.

dmereifield
Senior Member
Posts: 2762
Joined: 03 Aug 2016, 20:29
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by dmereifield »

Ok, do SF need 16 airframes? Does that sound about right?

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 7314
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

I agree especially if they need to lift the support battalion or part of as well. They would also be of use to 16 Air Assault for pathfinder missions or operations in bad weather. I still think though there is more to this that 16 "Special", airframes and support package for the 16.

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7245
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by Ron5 »

Lord Jim wrote:I agree especially if they need to lift the support battalion or part of as well. They would also be of use to 16 Air Assault for pathfinder missions or operations in bad weather. I still think though there is more to this that 16 "Special", airframes and support package for the 16.
The notice listed everything and that everything was16 helicopters fully equipped. No mention of extending support services.

inch
Senior Member
Posts: 1311
Joined: 27 May 2015, 21:35

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by inch »

Think it is what it is and there is no chance of UK v22 purchases but I'm sure our marine cousin's will provide that need if the need arises ,think going forwards the qe class are going to be like a second home for the the USMC and that can only be a great thing in my book

abc123
Senior Member
Posts: 2900
Joined: 10 May 2015, 18:15
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by abc123 »

Dahedd wrote:Seems excessive. Why not upgrade or purchase new Merlins at the Italian spec. The HH-101A Caesar as they've called it.

Don't be silly, way better to support US industry than your own. And complain later that the French have better defence industry...
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

bobp
Senior Member
Posts: 2684
Joined: 06 May 2015, 07:52
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by bobp »

Are these the MH-47G versions of the Chinook, with the air to air refuelling and ability to carry internal tanks as well as the large belly tanks.

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5656
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

bobp wrote:Are these the MH-47G versions of the Chinook, with the air to air refuelling and ability to carry internal tanks as well as the large belly tanks.
Believe so, along with radars, FLIR, high end communications, defensive systems avionics and the like.

Do they need 16 well if they have to operate in multiple locns, like we have seen then 16 seems like an appropriate uplift. Its not like as if the likes of Libya, Mali, Syria or the requirement to hunt and destroy high value targets or terrorist cells is likely to decrease.

Merlin simply doesn’t have the capability to operate across all the likely areas of operation, take it hot or high and its lifting ability drops off a cliff especially if it’s fully kitted out. Even taking off from a ship and having to climb a mountainous region over the coast it struggles in some parts of the world. That’s why chinook is platform of choice and merlin often referred to as the chinook sized puma.

Tinman
Member
Posts: 290
Joined: 03 May 2015, 17:59
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by Tinman »

JPR and SF support will be the primary mission for these.

abc123
Senior Member
Posts: 2900
Joined: 10 May 2015, 18:15
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by abc123 »

SW1 wrote:
Merlin simply doesn’t have the capability to operate across all the likely areas of operation, take it hot or high and its lifting ability drops off a cliff especially if it’s fully kitted out. Even taking off from a ship and having to climb a mountainous region over the coast it struggles in some parts of the world. That’s why chinook is platform of choice and merlin often referred to as the chinook sized puma.
Then let's just shut down all UK-based helicopter manufacturing, because the US will probably allways have better kit...
Oh, I forgot, that's allready happening... Leonardo, what a beautiful English name for a company... :crazy:
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5656
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

abc123

No it’s not that at all. All company’s particularly aerospace ones are multinational, what should happen as part of these deals is agreements to put workshare in the uk in exchange, it may not even necessarily be on the contracts that were buying but on upcoming future contracts, the biggest problem with Boeing it hasn’t done it and deliberately tried to destroy uk industry so I agree it need to change it ways. There is a balance to be struck merlin is good as an asw helicopter but expensive. It’s gearbox let’s it down. We already have 60 chinook in service and it already is the a/c of choice in the support helicopter role and the only heavy lift option out there, there has been options on other recent Boeing sole sources so there much more contentious.

There will at some point come a replacement requirement for merlin, puma and wildcat or a combination there off. A helicopter potientially optionally manned configurable to take on the various roles like Blackhawk has done for the Americans would be something that could be supplied from a uk production line, aw149 being the obvious Westland candidate or joining France in the H160m but there are others. Development would be needed and it will depend if the uk wishes to stay in the helicopter final assembly market or produce high value major subs like it has with civil aerospace.

Little J
Member
Posts: 973
Joined: 02 May 2015, 14:35
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by Little J »

With Puma scheduled to go in 2025, could these be a cheeky replacement? I would like to see aw149's (only if built here), but I can see the raf saying "look, we've cut costs by going to a single type"...

downsizer
Member
Posts: 892
Joined: 02 May 2015, 08:03

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by downsizer »

Most probably some of the oldest cabs will get chinned off for these.

User avatar
whitelancer
Member
Posts: 619
Joined: 05 May 2015, 22:19
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by whitelancer »

While these Helicopters will provide a very useful capability, is spending £2.7 billion on them a good use of resources? It would for instance buy 3 more T26 or 20 odd F35Bs. Not to mention that it does nothing for UK plc.

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5656
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

Whitelancer

Nothing in the defence budget lives in isolation so it is very much buy this so you don’t buy that. Imo the use of more specialists forces will increase in way of more overt ground forces and are already heavily tasked so that needs to be supported.

It would not buy 20 f35b or we are getting rightly stroked on our first 48! You cannot use the “unit flyaway” cost to determine what something will cost you. It never ever is representative to what it costs defence. Like wise with type 26 there is ways and means within the ship building budget to increase type 26 numbers however we at present do not what to reallocate money accordingly.

Little J

Could be but unlikely, thingthat gets me is all these things and announcements are appearing about what we’re buying or not scrapping but we still can’t publish this defence review that is required because we splurged way to much for our budget in 2015. So what’s getting cut and how joined up is the future force looking?

downsizer
Member
Posts: 892
Joined: 02 May 2015, 08:03

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by downsizer »

arfah wrote:
downsizer wrote:Most probably some of the oldest cabs will get chinned off for these.
Not long re-lifed under Project Julius???
8 odd years ago, and IIRC it was avionics work and not structural.

Bottom line being we dont need 76 of them. Scraped or RTP'd, thats the smart money.

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5656
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

This is likely the start of a complete chinook replacement program to commonise with the US Army as per

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... on-441025/

Marines would of loved some instead of merlin maybe they could take some raf cast off again.

abc123
Senior Member
Posts: 2900
Joined: 10 May 2015, 18:15
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by abc123 »

SW1 wrote:abc123

No it’s not that at all. All company’s particularly aerospace ones are multinational, what should happen as part of these deals is agreements to put workshare in the uk in exchange, it may not even necessarily be on the contracts that were buying but on upcoming future contracts, the biggest problem with Boeing it hasn’t done it and deliberately tried to destroy uk industry so I agree it need to change it ways. There is a balance to be struck merlin is good as an asw helicopter but expensive. It’s gearbox let’s it down. We already have 60 chinook in service and it already is the a/c of choice in the support helicopter role and the only heavy lift option out there, there has been options on other recent Boeing sole sources so there much more contentious.

There will at some point come a replacement requirement for merlin, puma and wildcat or a combination there off. A helicopter potientially optionally manned configurable to take on the various roles like Blackhawk has done for the Americans would be something that could be supplied from a uk production line, aw149 being the obvious Westland candidate or joining France in the H160m but there are others. Development would be needed and it will depend if the uk wishes to stay in the helicopter final assembly market or produce high value major subs like it has with civil aerospace.
I'm afraid that Wildcat will be probably the last UK-produced helicopter. But, I would be glad to be wrong on that issue.
About Merlin, while I agree that CEASAR has some Italian input, IMHO I would rather buy 20 Merlins and give more work for workers in UK than for Boeing and American workers. After all, if France can live without Chinooks than UK can too. Yes, they do have some problems and it's not perfest, but France is still there, their military is still there, their soldiers aren't dying en masse because they don't have Chinooks. And, UK has Chinooks, not one or two, but 60 of them. But the UK has 60 Merlins as well. And while I agree that in some things Chinhook is must have- nobody in the world will convince me that Merlins aren't good enough for SF support ( and presumably these new birds will be for that purpose ).
To conclude, just ask ourself- can you imagine France doing something like this? Buying American product when they have domestic not perfest- but good enough? I can't. And the record of last 50 years shows that their way is better, at least IMHO.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

Post Reply