Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
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RichardIC
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

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Given the continued relevance of Rotary Wing capabilities to delivering the Integrated Operating Concept and the
make-up of the in-service fleet, the UK MOD values operational independence alongside integration with allies. In
practice this means we need access in the UK to the know-how to support and upgrade our fleets to respond quickly to
changing threats and operational needs. To maintain this capability cost effectively we aim to consolidate our fleet, initially through procuring a new Medium Helicopter by the middle of the decade to replace the Puma and in due course three other helicopter types.

We anticipate that our other main helicopter platforms (Merlin, Wildcat, Chinook and latest Apache) will remain in-service until next generation technologies and unmanned systems start to augment or replace these more conventional systems. We will work in partnership with industry to ensure we can maximise the operational outputs of these fleets through innovative commercial support contracts
So this seems to indicate a new medium helicopter to replace Puma - and by process of elimination Gazelle, I dunno Bell 212, possibly SAS Dauphins in the relatively short term.

Then "next generation technologies" at least for Merlin.
Across NATO, most nations will be modernising or replacing aging Rotary Wing platforms around the 2040s with an interest in transitioning to the next generation platform technologies. This future market offers the UK an opportunity to work with allies and
industrial partners to explore future requirements, including the potential for co-development. To this end, the UK is taking a lead in NATO through the Next Generation Rotary Craft Capability project.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... _FINAL.pdf

The my uninitiated eye this looks, as mentioned previously, like a quickfire AW149 buy on the cards just to stop the lights from going out in Yeovil.

Image

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Ron5 wrote: I can't quite get my head around the dates. If the wonder helo is ready in 2035 but the interim Puma doesn't need replacing until mid 40's and the Merlin until 40
I also have that same problem.

May be we (the MoD planners) have added - on the precautionary principle, famous now from the preceding weeks in the vaccine wars - another 5 years to WHEN the new helo will be ready and wholly DEBUGGED?
- we've ordered all kinds of stuff where the debugging (and the required mods) bite into the first ten years in service
- look into the in-service flight hour costs in some (other) countries in Europe; the going for the NH90 was cheap for many years (bcz the manufacturer did not want to blemish, thwarting further sales)... and when finally everything (supply of spares included) had been fixed 'under warranty, THEN the cost per hour skyrocketed
... fireside stories from Helo-land :) . I have more (to tell) if anyone would like that (hand out, for the other manufacturers to buy my :silent: silence :lol: )
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

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OK, if you tally all the tweeted makes up, approaching a forty total.

May be, with all the fwd basing, there is greater willingness to maintain a fwrd support crew for the helos, too
- the 'funny' detail is that while the Bells on Cyprus have been for the SBAs (and the related SAR obligation) the UN force has been supported by an Argentine helo wing... under the command of a British officer :o
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

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Leonardo encouraged by UK commitment to new medium-lift helicopter and national industry
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... l-industry

Leonardo is encouraged by the UK government’s recent announcements that it is to recapitalise the Ministry of Defence’s (MoD’s) medium-lift helicopter fleet, at the same time as supporting national industry in fulfilling that and other future requirements.
Image
AW149 production would be transferred from Italy to Yeovil, should the type be selected by the UK as its new medium-lift helicopter solution. (Leonardo)

Speaking to Janes and other defence media on 26 March, a senior official from Leonardo Helicopters UK said that the announcements in the Integrated Review and Defence Command Paper over the previous days had boosted the company’s plan to offer a UK-built AW149 solution to the MoD’s requirement to replace the Westland-Aerospatiale SA 330E Puma HC2 and three other unidentified helicopter types.

“I would say how encouraged we are by the announcements that have come out this week, both in the confirmation of a replacement for the Puma and the recapitalisation of the medium fleet, and also very heartened by the focus on UK prosperity and the need to generate that prosperity will now be a key decision point on procurement decision going forward,” Managing Director Leonardo Helicopters UK, Nick Whitney, said. “From a Leonardo perspective with 7,000 jobs in the UK and 3,000 at Yeovil [in southern England], that is all very heartening for us and vitally important. We are sustaining high-end jobs that go hand in hand with having that total; capability to design, develop and build helicopters in the UK – we are the only company that can do that.”

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

Get more interesting enter the blackhawk?


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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Little J »

It would be the cheapest (and realistically the best) option, but i still think keeping Leo UK in work will be a massive factor...

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by andrew98 »

What about the AW139M , I believe it is already designed for maritime operations and this could be useful?

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

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Are any of these off the shelf helos, marinized?

Just asking.

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

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andrew98 wrote:What about the AW139M , I believe it is already designed for maritime operations and this could be useful?
The SH60 would be a perfect fit.

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

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Tinman wrote:The SH60 would be a perfect fit.
Other than the Romeos (which do a job we already have helos for)?
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

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It looks to me like two paths starting to present themselves aw149 and into a future medium rotorcraft with Leonardo/airbus or a sh60 purchase thru to the future US rotorcraft programs. A first test for a policy of placing a premium on UK content perhaps.

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

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If Leonardo is ready to produce them in the UK, then IMHO AW149 is a no-brainer.
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Defiance »

Janes is reporting Lockheed Martin are considering pitching the UH-60 as the Puma replacement under the New Medium Helicopter requirement - this is from a subscriber account and I can't yet find the public version but presumably it will come out in due time
Lockheed Martin is considering pitching the Sikorsky UH-60 Black Hawk to the UK as a Puma replacement under the country’s New Medium Helicopter (NMH) requirement.

A company spokesperson told Janes on 26 March that, while no formal bid has yet been constructed, the “latest generation” Black Hawk could be an option, depending on the programme’s requirements.

“The Black Hawk is still going strong as the medium-lift utility helicopter of choice for military and civil purposes (eg, police and border guard), and has a strong reputation as the platform of choice for special forces operations with many operators. Designed from the outset as a military helicopter, rather than one adapted from a commercial platform, it is rugged, versatile and adaptable for a large number of missions and can be re-roled quickly. As importantly, again due to its military pedigree, it is extremely reliable and easily maintained even when operating far from its home base,” the spokesperson said.

With the Royal Air Force (RAF) set to retire its 23-strong Puma HC2 force in 2025, Janes first reported the NMH replacement programme in February. In the Defence Command Paper published on 22 March, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) firmed up its intention, noting, “Investment in a new medium-lift helicopter in the mid-2020s will enable a consolidation of the army’s [and RAF’s] disparate fleet of medium-lift helicopters from four platform types to one; including the replacement of Puma.” While the paper did not disclose the three remaining types set for replacement under NMH, an industry official said it is his belief that they are the Bell 212 used by the Army Air Corps in Brunei, the Bell 412 used by the RAF in Cyprus, and the Airbus Dauphin used by the Special Air Service in Hereford.

Lockheed Martin’s disclosure that it is considering the Black Hawk follows earlier announcements from Airbus that it plans to offer a military variant of the H175, the NH90 and/or the H225M, and from Leonardo that its offer revolves around the AW149. For the H175M and the AW149, both Airbus and Leonardo are proposing UK production in line with the governments stated intent in the Integrated Review to support national industry. Lockheed Martin has not yet disclosed its planned industrial strategy, and indeed no formal requirement has yet been issued by the MoD.

Besides Airbus, Leonardo, and Lockheed Martin, offers could well be submitted by Boeing with its MH-139 military derivative of the AW139 to which it owns the rights, and by Bell which has the UH-1Y Venom in its military portfolio, as well as the 525 Relentless which, though strictly a commercial platform, fits the performance parameters of an NMH style solution and which could conceivably be developed into a military platform as part of a wider UK industrial solution. Neither Boeing nor Bell had disclosed their plans to Janes by the time of publication.

Though no formal MoD requirement has yet been drawn up, the Managing Director of Leonardo Helicopters UK, Nick Whitney, said he expects NMH to encompass upwards of 30 new helicopters for the UK, plus potential exports.

As the ‘latest generation’ Black Hawk currently in service, the UH-60M incorporates more powerful and reliable General Electric T700-GE-701D engines than its predecessors, as well as enhanced rotor blades and a fully digital ‘glass’ cockpit.

With the Black Hawk having been fielded by the US Army since the 1980s, there are currently thousands of the type operating in military air arms throughout the world. As well as proving itself in the harshest operating environment of Afghanistan over two decades, the Black Hawk allows operators to benefit from US government support, spares, and training infrastructures that help keep down long-term operating costs.


[Journalist Comment]
If Lockheed Martin does formally propose the Black Hawk, it will be the second time that the platform has been put forward as a potential Puma replacement for the UK.

In the 1980s, the Westland WS-70 Black Hawk was developed as a UK-specific variant of the helicopter. Only two prototypes were ever built, with the programme embroiled in a governmental spat over the Westland company that came to be known as the Westland Affair. That earlier requirement eventually went to the European Helicopter Industries (EHI) 101, which entered RAF service as the AgustaWestland AW101 Merlin.

While that episode more than 30 years ago is not likely to have any bearing on the latest NMH tender, the Westland Affair was one of the relatively few times that a defence issue transcended across into the wider national consciousness, and the prospect of the Black Hawk once again being bid to the UK will likely cause some raised eyebrows in the national media and public alike.
Probably won't beat a Leo offering due to the industrial argument and this is still a 'consideration' rather than a confirmation of a bid, but interesting nonetheless.

Leonardo's MD, Helicopters thinks the '4 types' mentioned in the Command paper are the Puma, Bell 212 used by AAC in Brunei, Bell 412 used by RAF in Cyprus and the Dauphin used by the SAS

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

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Defiance wrote:Black Hawk could be an option, depending on the programme’s requirements.
Can it be built at Yeovil? That's the only requirement.

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

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abc123 wrote:If Leonardo is ready to produce them in the UK, then IMHO AW149 is a no-brainer.
Yes looks good, but can it be used in a marine setting as well.

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

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bobp wrote:can it be used in a marine setting as well.
There's two types regularly used in that setting - why would we make it three?
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

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RichardIC wrote:
Defiance wrote:Black Hawk could be an option, depending on the programme’s requirements.
Can it be built at Yeovil? That's the only requirement.

Why would Yeovil build it if there offering aw149?

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

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Good article in Vertical Mag, with some further detail from Leonardo on the AW149:

https://verticalmag.com/news/leonardo-t ... placement/

Mentions numbers of 30-40 but that the order might be lower.

As an aside, the Egyptian Navy is currently set to be the largest user, (which we could have benefited from had we ordered AW149 in 2009, instead of the largely imported Puma HC2 upgrade...). Anyone know if they're meant to operate from their Mistral-ski class, and are 'partialy marinised' as such?
Ron5 wrote:Are any of these off the shelf helos, marinized?

Just asking.
- Unlike the AW149 mentioned above, the NH90 can be fitted with folding tails, rotors etc. Though the land-based TTH lacks the folding bit, not sure if it retains the salt water protection of the other variants. Caracal is also suitable for shipborne operation.

- No idea about the H175, maybe ask the Chinese... :think:

- The Boeing branded AW139 Grey Wolf could be partially modified but it seems an otherwise week theoretical proposal, unless they bundle them with the RAF's new MH-47Gs. Doubt either Boeing or Leonardo bare going to be keen on another production line.

- Buying any flavour of Blackhawk is going to be problematic, both politically and industrially. As to the Seahawk, surely two flavours of maritime helicopter are sufficent already? Without the need to bring another into the mix, and seeing the RAF swap them for more Chinooks!

Unless anyone can trump Leonardo on local build and platform maturity, I think the 149 probably has this in the bag - though with the MoD, who knows?

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

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ArmChairCivvy wrote:
bobp wrote:can it be used in a marine setting as well.
There's two types regularly used in that setting - why would we make it three?
Good to know we have enough Merlins & Wildcats to support all those MRSS :roll:

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Jensy »

Ron5 wrote:
ArmChairCivvy wrote:
bobp wrote:can it be used in a marine setting as well.
There's two types regularly used in that setting - why would we make it three?
Good to know we have enough Merlins & Wildcats to support all those MRSS :roll:
The Army Air Corps has all the maritime helicopters the Royal Navy could want (with a few modifications)...

As I (and others) have proposed before, shifting a dozen or so Wildcats to the Navy, with more 'medium lift' taking their place, could replace the Gazelle too. Saves on another platform being introduced for that requirement.

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Ron5 wrote:to support all those MRSS

We can get specific of which type of helo for them... when we will be closer to the 30s.
- Will you stick around until then?

The underline was a test in reading comprehension: you do understand that Apaches and Chinooks are used occasionally, no? But they do add an important capability (when needed)
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by bobp »

The AW149 is a versatile Helicopter, and I hope that the MOD can do a deal to build some in the UK.

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

While the blurb from AW is convincing (16 troops, make it two sections in one pass)
" customer-specific avionics and mission/weapon systems. The aircraft will be fitted with an integrated Defensive Aids Suite (DAS) and will be able to carry a sensor suite that could include the Osprey radar, the SAGE electronic support measures (ESM) system, and a MAIR missile warner, all from Leonardo."
=> do a spec and get all under a fixed price?

Whitney [much quoted of late] explained [that] " Further cost savings result from the AW149 being based on the existing AW139. It has a high degree of commonality with the AW139/169/189 family of commercial helicopters."
- I would add that in a 'real' situation we could 'TUFT' :o the Bristow 189 fleet
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

I don’t think aw149 will take as many as 16 troops fully kitted out, nor do I think that will be the requirement. Probably more like 8 plus 2 door gunners. Be interesting to see what the underslung load requirement might be.

A winch and fast rope capability a sub 50ft rotor dia along with probably a deployability and 300 mile range requirement. Full defensive system and coms. Likely also a requirement about oge hover at maxw at around 8000ft and higher ige. Perhaps a brown out and icing requirement. Also likely a run dry gearbox requirement along the lines of the standard req of at least 30min. Hopefully an availability contract too.

Be interesting to see if any type of armament pylons will be required.

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