Puma Helicopter (RAF)

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Lord Jim
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

I doubt they will extend the Puma beyond 2025, but rather leave a gap until the US programmes bear fruit, making a few savings in the mean time. I am sure they will be able to find placements for he air and ground crew during this period, possibly some crossing the pond and being imbedded in the US Army Programme.

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Jensy
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Jensy »

Considering the RAF (supposedly) had operating issues with the size of Merlin, then a combined solution suggests each service are going to have to compromise.

The AW149 looks like a decent piece of kit and has the benefit of commonality with the '39, '69 and '89.

Were the money there to replace Puma in the near term, it would be an ideal solution, rather than waiting to buy very expensive, early models of whatever flavour of FVL.

With the FVL programme focusing on speed, it might be better suited to a long-term Chinook replacement once the larger models are developed.

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shark bait
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by shark bait »

Lord Jim wrote:but rather leave a gap
At one point the RAF wanted some more Chinook to cover the gap.
@LandSharkUK

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Jensy
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Jensy »

The Armchair Soldier wrote:In case anyone’s concerned by the omission of the C-17 on this image of the Illustrative Force of 2035 released today:

Image

It was a mistake and there’s no plan to axe the C-17. The image will be updated. Source: This Tweet citing a senior RAF source
The part of this graphic which caught my eye was the talk of a "medium lift helicopter" which isn't named as Puma.

Makes me wonder if a replacement might actually have a chance of happening?.. Though it will likely be used to 'sweeten' less palatable parts of the defence review.

Very much last chance saloon for Yeovil.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Jensy wrote:used to 'sweeten' less palatable parts of the defence review.

Very much last chance saloon for Yeovil.
Likely (but will there be gapping? Not necessarily in lift with the 16 new Chinooks on the way; if we keep the older ones a tad longer that is)
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Jensy
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Jensy »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Jensy wrote:used to 'sweeten' less palatable parts of the defence review.

Very much last chance saloon for Yeovil.
Likely (but will there be gapping? Not necessarily in lift with the 16 new Chinooks on the way; if we keep the older ones a tad longer that is)
If those 16 fully loaded Chinooks go ahead, 'AND' we have a Puma replacement, then land based rotary wing is going to be pretty well off in comparison to other sections of the forces.

With the Army looking for a Gazelle replacement too there are lifelines available for the UK helicopter industry, if govt is willing to make certain choices.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Jensy wrote:go ahead, 'AND' we have
There's 10.8 bn for helicopters (navy included)
when all other land equipment (armour within that) stands at 18.4 bn
... so, yes, sitting pretty.

Survivability in different roles against a peer would need to be assessed
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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RichardIC
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by RichardIC »



Maybe something in it, maybe not. If there is anything in it it's more likely because Yeovil in rapidly running out of work than because the Army needs a new helicopter.

And I said Army because it may be operated by the RAF but it's tasked by the Army and therefore an Army requirement.

Perhaps March 8 will throw more light. Although it's looking more and more that the IR will be very high level and detail-light, with more coming out (or being fudged) in subsequent papers.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

RichardIC wrote:March 8 will throw more light. Although it's looking more and more that the IR will be very high level and detail-light,
Ohh, early March has now been 'defined'. Good.

And it will be the White Paper... just that the terminology has reached its :) OSD.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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RichardIC
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by RichardIC »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Ohh, early March has now been 'defined'. Good.
No sorry, that's a speculated date, mainly from defence-related social media.

topman
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by topman »

Kids go back to school that day, since the government want to sell this as good news, I'm not it'll be on that day. Possibly that week though.

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RichardIC
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by RichardIC »

topman wrote:Kids go back to school that day, since the government want to sell this as good news, I'm not it'll be on that day. Possibly that week though
Good day to bury bad news more likely.

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RichardIC
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by RichardIC »

This part of the Command Paper is pretty incoherent.
Investment in a new medium
lift helicopter in the mid-2020s will enable a
consolidation of the Army’s disparate fleet of
medium lift helicopters from four platform types
to one; including the replacement of Puma.
Investment in a new helicopter, good. Obviously Puma is RAF operated but Army tasked. Chinook is mentioned separately so presumably not covered in the "four platform types".

So what does it include? The only other type I think most people would describe as "medium lift" is Merlin. There's a small number of contractor owned Bell 212. Wildcat!?

Lord Jim
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

Well if this means the AAC will be getting a "Fleet",( quick question how many platforms are needed before you have a fleet?) of medium helicopters to operate alongside the Apache Guardians and give it a cohesive Brigade, then it is good news.

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

I’ll go out on a limb and guess it’s probably the 4 platforms that operate under the army’s budget in joint helicopter command, eg wildcat, Puma gazelle and merlin mk4 thought it’s a pretty poor document in comparison to the IR document.

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by tomuk »

SW1 wrote:army’s budget in joint helicopter command, eg wildcat, Puma gazelle and merlin mk4
In the Navy 2030 infographic
Wildcat HMA and BRH are shown with Merlin Mk2 (ASW and Crowsnest) and MK4

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bobp
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by bobp »

Hopefully Merlin replacements included in all this.

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RichardIC
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by RichardIC »

The whole document is incredibly vague in places, but this is one of the vaguest sections. Future UK mil rotary capability makes one paragraph that, quite frankly, provides more questions than answers.

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Tempest414
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Tempest414 »

Still think that Puma , Gazelle , Bell 212 & AS365 should be replaced by 60 AW-149 40 for the AAC and 20 for the RAF with the Merlin fleet being replaced by the new design being push about this should keep Yovil going until 2045/50

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Medium helos and (other) RAF support helicopters were listed for the Combat Aviation Bde, which does give more content for it (esp. as the Airmobile Bde is clearly separate; can use the assets but does not 'own' them)
- with that change and the fixed-wing army liaison a/c types (that were moved from AAC earlier) on their way out, will there be any sqdrns with such a designation? - May be the KingAir based ISR-planes?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Ron5 »

SW1 wrote:it’s a pretty poor document in comparison to the IR document
Not a high hurdle to exceed. Both documents are awful.

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Ron5 »

bobp wrote:Hopefully Merlin replacements included in all this.
It wasn't that long ago that it was announced that the UK had joined a cross European team to develop a new medium helicopter to replace both Puma and Merlin. With that in mind, I'm puzzled by folks insistence that an off the shelf helo will be purchased as a Puma replacement. I think it more likely the requirement will be gapped until the brand new wonder helo hits the streets.

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Jensy
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Jensy »

Ron5 wrote:
bobp wrote:Hopefully Merlin replacements included in all this.
It wasn't that long ago that it was announced that the UK had joined a cross European team to develop a new medium helicopter to replace both Puma and Merlin. With that in mind, I'm puzzled by folks insistence that an off the shelf helo will be purchased as a Puma replacement. I think it more likely the requirement will be gapped until the brand new wonder helo hits the streets.
Think the idea of an interim Puma replacement came from this Flight Global article:

https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopter ... 48.article
But in parallel the UK is one of five countries participating in a NATO programme to develop a common medium-class rotorcraft to enter service in 2035.

Lieutenant Commander Andrew White, who serves as secretary to that effort, as well as holding a post in the UK’s capability air manoeuvre body, told the conference that any interim Puma replacement would be expected to have a service life of around 20 years.

On that basis “the UK would be looking again around 2045”. If the service life of the Merlin fleet was extended, that would be retired around 2040.
The article also mentions how the IR was expected to spell out any decision. Which didn't exactly work out like that.

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by bobp »

Ron5 wrote:It wasn't that long ago that it was announced that the UK had joined a cross European team to develop a new medium helicopter
I forgot about that, however cannot see that effort succeeding as the EU will want leadership.

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Ron5 »

Jensy wrote:
Ron5 wrote:
bobp wrote:Hopefully Merlin replacements included in all this.
It wasn't that long ago that it was announced that the UK had joined a cross European team to develop a new medium helicopter to replace both Puma and Merlin. With that in mind, I'm puzzled by folks insistence that an off the shelf helo will be purchased as a Puma replacement. I think it more likely the requirement will be gapped until the brand new wonder helo hits the streets.
Think the idea of an interim Puma replacement came from this Flight Global article:

https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopter ... 48.article
But in parallel the UK is one of five countries participating in a NATO programme to develop a common medium-class rotorcraft to enter service in 2035.

Lieutenant Commander Andrew White, who serves as secretary to that effort, as well as holding a post in the UK’s capability air manoeuvre body, told the conference that any interim Puma replacement would be expected to have a service life of around 20 years.

On that basis “the UK would be looking again around 2045”. If the service life of the Merlin fleet was extended, that would be retired around 2040.
The article also mentions how the IR was expected to spell out any decision. Which didn't exactly work out like that.
Thanks although I can't quite get my head around the dates. If the wonder helo is ready in 2035 but the interim Puma doesn't need replacing until mid 40's and the Merlin until 40, what will the wonder helo's be bought for??

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