Puma Helicopter (RAF)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

SW1 wrote: the working assumption was that merlin asw and aew would be replaced with unmanned systems
Ohh, well for the latter we can modify a weather balloon to be tethered and carry enough of payload

... but for the former :?:
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

SW1
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
SW1 wrote: the working assumption was that merlin asw and aew would be replaced with unmanned systems
Ohh, well for the latter we can modify a weather balloon to be tethered and carry enough of payload

... but for the former :?:
Perhaps along these lines

https://www.naval-technology.com/featur ... scout-asw/

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Is that
" developing a production system in a move that pre-empts customer orders. "
a good idea?

Whereas there was a nugget in the main text:
"the first example of a vertical take-off surrogate uncrewed aerial system (VTUAS) being used to undertake a large area multistatic acoustic search. "
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Dahedd
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Dahedd »

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... er-in-2021

James has this article which seems interesting. Is there any difference between the Leonardo AW139 & Boeing MH139?

Lord Jim
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

My only requirement is that we get the best Helicopter for the money available, above all other considerations. If the Government and Treasury want to make more funding available to allow Leonardo to match the price of any of the other bids then fine, we can build the Puma replacement in the UK. But if we can get a better helicopter from overseas then so be it.

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Pseudo
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Pseudo »

Lord Jim wrote:My only requirement is that we get the best Helicopter for the money available, above all other considerations. If the Government and Treasury want to make more funding available to allow Leonardo to match the price of any of the other bids then fine, we can build the Puma replacement in the UK. But if we can get a better helicopter from overseas then so be it.
I agree to a degree because you have to take in to account the wider impact on government finances of people being employed in the UK, paying taxes in the UK, and raising stable and well-educated children that will support their retirement.

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by SD67 »

Lord Jim wrote:My only requirement is that we get the best Helicopter for the money available, above all other considerations. If the Government and Treasury want to make more funding available to allow Leonardo to match the price of any of the other bids then fine, we can build the Puma replacement in the UK. But if we can get a better helicopter from overseas then so be it.
Lord Jim wrote:
Depends on your time horizon. Seems to me every time we have lost a sovereign industrial capability the cost has gone up in the medium term. If Alvis were still in business the Army wouldn't be in such an expensive mess. I'm sure Boeing or Airbus would love to put in a headline low ball bid, thereby wiping out AW, and then make the profit back 5 times over in long term support cost.

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

Maybe we could do the same as what happened to BAe Telford and get Boeing, Airbus or Lockheed Martin to buy a controlling share form Leonardo as part of any contract award and then become a European hub for their respective products. Only issue is that Lockheed Martin already have one of these in Poland.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Lord Jim wrote:buy a controlling share form Leonardo
as we have used that trick once already, why pass the parcel? Chinook and Apache are the only platforms there no talk about replacing
- say we need to extend the Merlin fleet; buy some new airframes and husband the use across the whole fleet. From whom? well, Leonardo Italy
- contrast that to the hugely expensive original Brit-Apaches; now the remanufacture has gone back to where it is done at scale and the reuse of any bespoke additions is minimal
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Ron5
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Ron5 »

The Treasury's new green book adopted this year, makes it official government policy that benefits to the UK industry/economy override low cost in procurement decisions.

As it should have from day one.

As it does in every other advanced industrial nation.

Arguing opposite, to say the least, is obtuse.

And no, the Treasury or any other part of government, should not, and will not, provide additional funds to the MoD in order for the MoD to do the right thing. Just as the MoD won't be subsidizing other departments doing the right thing for their procurements.

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Ron5 wrote:And no, the Treasury or any other part of government, should not, and will not, provide additional funds to the MoD in order for the MoD to do the right thing.
The Dept of Biz just did, £400 mln (matching another source for the initial funding) for low-orbit satellite constellation (to be put in place)
- total cost of £5bn estimated, apportioning that for military and other deliverables, over the longer term, getting to be a subject of keen interest in the Parliament
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

https://www.janes.com/amp/leonardo-to-u ... ssion=true

Leonardo is to unveil a demonstrator helicopter at its Yeovil plant in Somerset in May to spearhead its bid to win the UK’s recently announced New Medium Helicopter...

Leonardo is to unveil a demonstrator helicopter at its Yeovil plant in Somerset in May to spearhead its bid to win the UK’s recently announced New Medium Helicopter (NMH) competition with its AW149 helicopter.

A Leonardo spokesperson told Janes on 9 April, “The demonstrator aircraft [will] highlight specific characteristics related to the aircraft, including the possibility of choosing between a General Electric or Safran engine. It should be noted that the AW149 was designed as a military helicopter. The AW189 commercial helicopter came later, developed specifically for the commercial market based on the common platform which originated with the AW149.”

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Ron5 »

They're painting an AW189 black. That's all.

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Defiance »

Ron5 wrote:They're painting an AW189 black. That's all.
It's a brilliant example of why a lot of pant-wetting around the word 'demonstrator' isn't entirely justified

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

I suppose we could get a few pf AW189s to shuttle around important people and Politicians in a certain level of comfort.

andrew98
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by andrew98 »

If they're in comfort, they'll think its too good for the forces!

Little J
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Little J »

Ron5 wrote:They're painting an AW189 black. That's all.
Well they painted a Bell 222 black and that became Airwolf!?! :angel: 8-) :lol:

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by bobp »

This may be relevant to the above in particular the AW139....

https://www.aero-mag.com/three-new-heli ... ombe-down/

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

https://www.janes.com/amp/airbus-sees-s ... ssion=true

A UK-developed military version of the H175 could be one of Airbus’ offerings to the MoD as a potential Puma replacement, along with the H225M and NH90. (Airbus Helicopters)

Speaking to Janes and other defence media at its Oxford Airport facility on 22 April, Airbus Helicopters UK said that the company’s bid to replace the Royal Air Force’s (RAF’s) fleet of Puma HC2s and three other helicopter types later in the decade will be driven by sustainability, as much as anything else.

“It is more about making sure that what we do is sustainable. Manufacturing would always be for more than the UK – if not, it is not sustainable and it just wouldn’t make any sense,” Managing Director of Airbus Helicopters UK, Colin James, said. “The New Medium Helicopter is an opportunity to do something for the UK helicopter industry, but also helicopters are important for the sustainability of Airbus, which has provided great success for the UK.”

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

Same old situation, the MoD has to possible pay more for something out of the its budget to keep a part of UK industry going. Isn't there a whole Governmental Department supposed to do that? And now they are to accept less capable platforms to achieve this as well. So much for giving our Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen/Airwomen the best kit to do the job, as the Politicians like to say as often as possible.

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

Lord Jim wrote:Same old situation, the MoD has to possible pay more for something out of the its budget to keep a part of UK industry going. Isn't there a whole Governmental Department supposed to do that? And now they are to accept less capable platforms to achieve this as well. So much for giving our Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen/Airwomen the best kit to do the job, as the Politicians like to say as often as possible.
Yeah of course much better to use uk money to keep American aerospace workers employed while laying off your own

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

Well if keeping our workers in jobs then the department for industry should play its part, aren't we supposed to have something like a "Joined up Government", these days, or at least I thought we were. I have no issue with buying kit made in the UK, we still make some of the best kit in the world in certain areas. But why doesn't our Government follow the examples of almost every other Europeans Governments and spend money to support and protect its industries above and beyond using their Defence procurement plans. Look at France's naval and aerospace industries as well as those of Italy and Spain. They see them as national strategic assets and are unwilling to leave them wholly at the whim of markets. WE have dipped our toe in the water with the National Ship Building Strategy, but again pulled back using money to directly support this area, instead relying on orders form the MoD and hoped for exports. We have been lucky in this but the platform designed for export was not the one that has been successful.

The MoD need to get the best bang for its buck. It has not got the money to support UK industry as well the AW149 would be a great successor to the Puma but if it is chosen and also to be built in the UK, any additional costs that arise form that requirement need to be covered by additional funds from outside the Defence Budget. But is it economical to set up a production line in the UK for the number of helicopters we are likely to buy. Will Leonardo close their existing line and divert all AW149 production to the UK?

On a brighter note, there is a lot of competition out there in the class of Helicopter we should be after so just maybe the market will work for us this time.

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

And they do both thru R&D investment, incentives to recruiting staff both at a national and local government level. But the MoDs budget dwarfs theres, we spent very significant sums on defence let’s not pretend otherwise.

If we were in any comparable country that has the comparable industries the UK has we wouldn’t even be having this discussion it would the default position National industry first, be it the US, France, Germany, Japan, Italy, Korea. Until there is realisation that investing in local industry product is increasing your bang for your buck then there is simply no helping them.

Why because if your buying final product from uk based company’s you get a number of things. You get sovereignty control over the product and what you can do with it, your investment helps to boast employment and in the longer term GDP which in turn means your budget increases. Company’s willing to invest in there own products if they know your serious about long term purchasing. You generate a lobbying force through the people they employ, local mps and the company’s themselves. Much easier to make an argument for buying things from uk companies in a recovery or crisis than from a foreign country. Much easier to argue for more spending if it means investment in constituencies of those looking elected. It also means you pass currency risk to the company not your budget especially if there responsible for sourcing in things to integrate into there final product that they are selling you.

Do we need to buy everything from the uk no, but we do need to buy the significant parts that we have significant industrial presence in.

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by topman »

It's a difficult balancing act, there are times though when you get told you're having this even if the services don't really want that but due to jobs, you're stuck with it.
There's pros and cons to both.

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by SD67 »

IMHO there's no logical reason that UK production should be more expensive, as long as there is a decently sized production run, no excessive bespoke requirements, and the prime is not price gouging. The Medium helicopter should tick all these boxes, there are plenty of cost benchmarks available it's a crowded market. Unless the Army decides to FRES it up.

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