UK Defence Forum

News, History, Discussions and Debates on UK Defence.

Lockheed C-130 Hercules (RAF)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
Timmymagic
Senior Member
Posts: 1348
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Lockheed C-130 Hercules (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 15 Jul 2018, 17:20

ArmChairCivvy wrote:efitting old planes to the SF std ( if we sell all the short bodied one) sounds stupid' but then again, the A-400M is bigger still, so might not suit all occasions in such a use


It's the whole fleet size now that worries me (and the suitability of the long fuselaged variant for AAR). Perhaps we're looking to A400 for the helicopter AAR role. Hercules, due to the role they undertake, are the 1 large airframe that we can expect to have reasonably regular hull losses of. We lost 9 C1/C3 in total. And we've lost 2 J variants out of the original 25. Not sure if there are any more that are beyond economical repair..

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 10626
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Lockheed C-130 Hercules (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 15 Jul 2018, 17:42

Timmymagic wrote:the suitability of the long fuselaged variant for AAR[)]. Perhaps we're looking to A400 for the helicopter AAR role.


Interesting question. The French purchase of Js (to add to their Hs) was first in the news as coming with AAR kits, whereas now DefenceNews is talking about some being of the KC version, as in:
"the first of the four Lockheed Martin C-130Js at a formal ceremony at the Orleans air base, south of the capital. That plane arrived Dec. 22.

"The second C-130J is expected to be delivered in May or June, said Tony Frese, Lockheed Martin’s vice president for business development for air mobility and maritime missions.

The last two of the [4 in total] Super Hercules in the KC-130J version are earmarked for the French special forces, which are keen to have aerial refueling of helicopters, the source said. These two planes are due for delivery next year."

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 3379
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Lockheed C-130 Hercules (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 16 Jul 2018, 00:45

The RAF is going to have issues creating any AAR capacity beyond that provided by the Voyager, as the PFI gave them sole responsibility for the job. This is one of the problems with the whole PFI idea in that you are locked into an inflexible contract. The Contractors may be will to renegotiate but it will cost us even if the new requirements was not foreseen when the PFI was let or that the Voyager is unsuitable for the role of Helicopter AAR.

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 10626
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Lockheed C-130 Hercules (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 16 Jul 2018, 08:06

Lord Jim wrote:the PFI gave them sole responsibility for the job

Lord Jim wrote:foreseen [or not?] when the PFI was let or that the Voyager is unsuitable for the role of Helicopter AAR


I wonder if there is some urban legend mixed in there as no one - at least here - has so far quoted from the contract and aircraft and rotorcraft may well have been separated in the "definitions" which normally run into several pages, and can be specific to just that one contract?

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 3379
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Lockheed C-130 Hercules (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 16 Jul 2018, 09:11

I do not know if the AAR PFI contract is in the public domain but I doubt it. PFIs usually go into minute detail as to what is included in the contract, but in this case it depends on whether the AAR of Helicopters was a know requirement at the time the contract was let. I know the Merlin HC2 was often shown at the time with a AAR probe but was it actually adopted by the RAF? If refuelling Helicopters was not on the radar at the time there could be room for manoeuvre but the consortium running the PFI will want to be informed of any plans to gain this capability so their lawyers can look things over, as they will not want to give up any possible income. Saying that converting a number of C-130Js to be able to carry out the AAR role would be a good idea, and would allow once again a Tanker to be based in the Falklands. It could also push the MoD to equip the SF Chinooks with AAR probes. The increase speed of the Js makes them far more suitable for the AAR of FJs. Alternatively, we could purchase six to eight additional A400Ms together with the AAR kits to go with them, both increasing the fleets and gaining the capability. Probably the cheapest option though would be to just purchase half a dozen AAR kits for our existing A400Ms.

Timmymagic
Senior Member
Posts: 1348
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Lockheed C-130 Hercules (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 16 Jul 2018, 20:22

Lord Jim wrote:The Contractors may be will to renegotiate but it will cost us even if the new requirements was not foreseen when the PFI was let or that the Voyager is unsuitable for the role of Helicopter AAR.


Easy solution to that if Airtanker plays up saying they're responsible for all AAR....task them to refuel some helos....when they can't they're in breach of contract....

topman
Member
Posts: 309
Joined: 07 May 2015, 20:56
Location: Tokelau

Re: Lockheed C-130 Hercules (RAF)

Postby topman » 17 Jul 2018, 10:50

I'm pretty sure aar for rotary isn't covered in the contract. We've no real requirement for it and they can't provide it.

RetroSicotte
Site Admin
Posts: 2470
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:10
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Lockheed C-130 Hercules (RAF)

Postby RetroSicotte » 10 Aug 2018, 15:36

https://www.janes.com/article/82290/raf ... -iraq-loss

Plan still to be for 14 C-130, it looks like.

Timmymagic
Senior Member
Posts: 1348
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Lockheed C-130 Hercules (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 12 Aug 2018, 09:08

RetroSicotte wrote:Plan still to be for 14 C-130, it looks like.


13 long fuselaged and 1 short fuselaged.

Looks like we have the potential for 1 conversion for helicopter AAR then...

User avatar
Gabriele
Senior Member
Posts: 1953
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:53
Location: Italy
Contact:

Re: Lockheed C-130 Hercules (RAF)

Postby Gabriele » 12 Aug 2018, 10:25

Earlier on, 12 + 2 tankers had been the talk. That would make a good bit of sense.
You might also know me as Liger30, from that great forum than MP.net was.

Arma Pacis Fulcra.
Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 3379
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Lockheed C-130 Hercules (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 12 Aug 2018, 12:01

I still want to see 3 or 4 AC-130Js in RAF service, of a similar conversion to what the USMC has done to their KC-130Js, but using Brimstone 2 rather then Hellfire, and stick a couple of CTA-40s out the side with programmable ammo, and all the necessary electronics. That would be a truly multirole platform to support SF operations.

Dahedd
Member
Posts: 483
Joined: 06 May 2015, 11:18

Re: Lockheed C-130 Hercules (RAF)

Postby Dahedd » 12 Aug 2018, 12:46

Wishful thinking there Lord Jim. It's a wonderful idea but it'll never happen.

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 3379
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Lockheed C-130 Hercules (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 12 Aug 2018, 20:25

It is nice to dream once and a while though.

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 5826
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Location: Pitcairn Island

Re: Lockheed C-130 Hercules (RAF)

Postby shark bait » 13 Aug 2018, 10:23

I have often wondered why the RAF have never pursued a Gun Ship. Sure a bespoke gun ship does not make good sense, but some roll on kit for an existing aircraft starts to sound appealing. Would such an aircraft make sense for an over-watch capability on COIN operations?
@LandSharkUK

RetroSicotte
Site Admin
Posts: 2470
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:10
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Lockheed C-130 Hercules (RAF)

Postby RetroSicotte » 13 Aug 2018, 12:47

shark bait wrote:I have often wondered why the RAF have never pursued a Gun Ship. Sure a bespoke gun ship does not make good sense, but some roll on kit for an existing aircraft starts to sound appealing. Would such an aircraft make sense for an over-watch capability on COIN operations?

Only the US really uses them in any real way, and even they only have a handful.

Just so niche that they really aren't a budget priority. They need VERY permissive environments.

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 5826
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Location: Pitcairn Island

Re: Lockheed C-130 Hercules (RAF)

Postby shark bait » 13 Aug 2018, 15:06

It is a niche capability for permissive environments, much like Shadow.
@LandSharkUK

RetroSicotte
Site Admin
Posts: 2470
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:10
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Lockheed C-130 Hercules (RAF)

Postby RetroSicotte » 13 Aug 2018, 15:16

shark bait wrote:It is a niche capability for permissive environments, much like Shadow.

A SIGINT/EW aircraft and a direct fire gunship have very different operating envelopes.

It's a niche that isn't essential to cover, not when the budget is needed for other things that aren't covered. The UK has no end to things that can perform CAS. It doesn't need another dedicated fleet or taking time away from logistics operations on an aircraft, just to perform the same role but with a little bit more specialisation for rare and specific scenarios.

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 3379
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Lockheed C-130 Hercules (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 13 Aug 2018, 21:10

I know it is fantasy land stuff, but I was more aiming towards what the USMC have done to their KC-130Js, where they have turned their Tankers into dual role platforms being able to act as Gunships in permissive environments. They use Hellfire form underwing hardpoints and other ordonnance out the back. We have Brimstone an even more effective weapon system and having a palletised system where other kit is able to be installed if needed. On top of all this you have a AAR Tanker able to refuel planes and helicopters and use austere airstrips to operate from unlike the Voyager. As I said fantasy, but far more useful than a number of so called priority programmes we are pursuing.

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 10626
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Lockheed C-130 Hercules (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 01 Sep 2018, 08:28

Lord Jim wrote:ave a AAR Tanker able to refuel planes and helicopters and use austere airstrips to operate from unlike the Voyager. As I said fantasy, but far more useful than a number of so called priority programmes we are pursuing.


Not that far off if you take a testimony from 2016 by the then commander of French special forces:
"often need more than special forces to undertake special operations,” the general told the parliamentarians.

He also talked about the 14 C-130 Hercules, noting that if the contract to modernise eight of them is notified by autumn 2016, then these aircraft should be delivered between 2019 and 2022. The upgrade aims to significantly improve their tactical capabilities “notably, their self-protection, communications, aptitude to fly at very low altitude in low visibility with infrared detection capabilities,” the general explained.

He also stressed that lessons learned from recent operations “mean that we are now urging for this long endurance sensor, which is also what the C-130 is, to be equipped so that it can provide fire support to friendly troops and engage dynamic targets.” In other words, to give it the capacity to be able to fire a missile type munition. “This does not mean turning it into a bomber,” de Saint-Quentin stressed."

-whether this plan still stands (after the purchase of brand new Hercs, some with AAR/ ground refuelling kits) I don't know... Frenchie might know?

At that point the Reaper hrs available were 80% absorbed by specil ops (again, they have ordered armed Reapers since).
So whether to do specialist fit-outs, or to go with "standard" vendor-supported kit seems to be the cross-pull everywhere
- err on the safe side... and do both :D

Ron5
Senior Member
Posts: 3553
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
Location: United States of America

Re: Lockheed C-130 Hercules (RAF)

Postby Ron5 » 01 Sep 2018, 16:30

Ooooo look who's back :-)

bobp
Senior Member
Posts: 1667
Joined: 06 May 2015, 07:52
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Lockheed C-130 Hercules (RAF)

Postby bobp » 17 Feb 2019, 15:35

The work to begin replacing the centre wing box has commenced according to Janes

https://www.janes.com/article/86426/uk- ... on-in-2027

Qwerty
Member
Posts: 84
Joined: 06 Apr 2018, 15:36
Location: Germany

Re: Lockheed C-130 Hercules (RAF)

Postby Qwerty » 22 May 2019, 22:13


Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 3379
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Lockheed C-130 Hercules (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 18 Jun 2019, 18:39

Maybe we should look again at this option and retain 6 to 8 of our C-130Js if we still have them. These could supplement the P-8s allowing the latter to concentrate more on the ASW aspect whist the former could possibly provide SAR cover given their AAR capability allowing them to cover a very large area.
https://www.janes.com/article/89322/par ... -for-c-130

Dahedd
Member
Posts: 483
Joined: 06 May 2015, 11:18

Re: Lockheed C-130 Hercules (RAF)

Postby Dahedd » 20 Jun 2019, 08:55

Lord Jim wrote:Maybe we should look again at this option and retain 6 to 8 of our C-130Js if we still have them. These could supplement the P-8s allowing the latter to concentrate more on the ASW aspect whist the former could possibly provide SAR cover given their AAR capability allowing them to cover a very large area.
https://www.janes.com/article/89322/par ... -for-c-130


A few of these could cover UK waters for both Patrol & SAR leaving the core P8 fleet to go a bit further afield.

In SAR set up the benefits of the ramp for emergency deployment of rafts & such is obvious. Even if the RAF fly them but funding comes from Border Force/Coast Guard budgets.

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 3379
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Lockheed C-130 Hercules (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 09 Jul 2019, 20:43

More info in the MPA kit for the C-130J as shown at the Paris Air Show this year.
https://www.janes.com/article/89683/par ... rce=Eloqua
The fact that it can be weaponised offers even more options.


Return to “Royal Air Force”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

 

 

cron