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Boeing P-8A Poseidon (MRA Mk.1) (RAF)

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 22 Aug 2018, 19:04

Given how few Poseidons we are buying, unless the role of Storm Shadow changes to a maritime one I cannot see the need for it to be integrated, yes another launch platform would be nice, but we can refuel our existing Typhoons where as we cannot the Poseidons so range is not a key factor, plus the latter would be sitting duck in all but the most benign environment and the range of Russian made SAMs is getting longer by the minute it seems as they look to these to counter the Wests advantage in aerial platforms. Stingray was going to have to be replaced eventually and the RN is not fitting to to its next generations of surface ships. Once the RAF have the Mk54 the RN will also adopt it for their rotary ASW platforms, especially has the Stingrays eventually run out of shelf life. Whether anything actually comes out of the FCASW programme is far from certain. There has been much stated about Anglo/French co-operation in the past few decades but little has actually appeared. Add to this the fact that both the JSM and LRASM can be fired from deck mounting and the MK41 means their sales are going to be hard for a European missile to compete with especially with regards to cost. Add the commonality between the JSM and NSM and thigs get worse. The French will almost certainly develop something, but as cost is going to be one of if not the key driver for the RN, Buying from the US may be the only affordable alternative.

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby SKB » 22 Aug 2018, 19:14

BBC News:
US submarine hunting aircraft are to operate out of RAF Lossiemouth on the Moray Firth. The US Navy is to spend more than £60m on improvements needed to the station to facilitate its aircraft and crews.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... d-45269999

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby downsizer » 22 Aug 2018, 19:45

TDY only. Not permanently based there.

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 23 Aug 2018, 11:36

Lord Jim wrote:Stingray was going to have to be replaced eventually and the RN is not fitting to to its next generations of surface ships. Once the RAF have the Mk54 the RN will also adopt it for their rotary ASW platforms, especially has the Stingrays eventually run out of shelf life.


Stingray has been reworked recently. Arguably its more advanced than Mk.54. Nothing has been announced around using it on rotary wing whatsoever. Mk.54 will only be bought in very limited numbers to initially equip Poseidon. The lack of tubes is just FFBNW at its worst.

Lord Jim wrote:Add to this the fact that both the JSM and LRASM can be fired from deck mounting and the MK41 means their sales are going to be hard for a European missile to compete with especially with regards to cost. Add the commonality between the JSM and NSM and things get worse.


JSM cannot be launched from surface or land. That's NSM. Commonality between the 2 isn't going to confer any practical advantage. You can't share parts between them, and the platforms are so disparate as to make anything common about their mode of operation to be moot. LRASM hasn't actually done a canister launch or full Mk.41 launch yet either. That capability comes with LRASM 2 c2025. Both NSM/JSM and LRASM are also eye-wateringly expensive. The proposed UK/French 'competitor' will be a significantly different beast and given the full arrival of LRASM capability being quite some time away isn't that far behind.

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 23 Aug 2018, 13:19

Although it was design initially as an air launched weapon, the US has discovered that the revised shape of the JSM means it can be launched for the Mk41, where as the NSA can only at present be launched from its designated launch canisters. A launch system has been developed in the US that basically turns the MK41 in to a deck mounted four round launch canister for all weapons currently cleared for the vertical one. This was designed for smaller vessels and for retrofitting to older designs, gaining the benefit of the MK41 without having to cut into the hull.

I appreciate that the Stingray was updated within the last ten years, and as I said we will keep using it on out helicopters whilst it is still within its service life, but after that it is fairly logical that whatever weapon is used on the Poseidon will be adopted by the FAA, be it he Mk54 or its successor. Also if we do adopt VL-ASROC, that also uses the Mk54.

Whether the T-26 or T-31e actually get Torpedo Tubes is in no way a certainty, even for them to be FFBNW. The MoD is trying to save every penny it can, and if its risk assessment says that the RM can get by without installing these on its next generation of escorts them it will not. Also as mentioned above there is the option, at least on the T-26 at present, to adopt the VL-ASROC which would replace the tubes in any case removing another user of the Stingray.

Finally, torpedoes require a lot of maintenance even when stored in depot. Individual components have a shelf life and if the Merlin and Wildcat are the sole users of the Stingray where as the RAF and fleet are using the Mk54, it may be seen as more cost effective to only have one maintenance line for a single weapon, resulting in the Stingray being withdrawn sooner rather than later. Why remove a perfectly good weapon from service before its time, no one ever said the MoD's decisions always made sense, but there are many precedence in the past of it doing just that.

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby S M H » 23 Aug 2018, 18:20

I was involved in recovery of the drill drop tests of Stingray . A o class sub provided the target for the trials test of the west coast of Scotland. Later in 1982 the Nimrod test drops east of Gibraltar using a S.S.N. the weapon was fitted with a inflation ring in place of war head. This allowed the data retrieval. The torpedo was manufactured so to interchangeable with the Mk 44 and 46. Norway purchased Stingray for there p3s. if the Mk 54 and stingray have not diverged from the original requirement it would be less complicated. The integration costs would fall on the UK unless Norway requires to integrate the weapon. This would only be efficient if stingray has a tactical advantage over the Mk 54. The diameter difference and weight for the glider kit may be the issue for intergradation on Poseidon .

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby AndyC » 24 Aug 2018, 12:32

One reason for integrating Storm Shadow on to the Poseidon is the inclusion of a two-way datalink after the SPEAR 4 upgrade to allow for retargeting which could allow the missile to target ships up to 560 kilometres away https://militaryleak.com/2018/05/29/storm-shadow-scalp-eg/

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby NickC » 17 Sep 2018, 14:07

Small "low" cost ocean reconnaissance constellation of satellites, would it pay in preference to additional P-8A's ?

The SST Ltd Guilford NovaSAR satellite, Synthetic Aperture Radar satellite launched yesterday with an optical satellite STL-4 from an Indian Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle rocket, an order of magnitude lower cost and lighter 450 kg satellite in relation to previous SAR satellites.

As a digital synthetic aperture radar it can carry out many missions, though main role expected to be in maritime observation, satellite is equipped with a Honeywell Aerospace receiver that can pick up Automatic Identification System (AIS) radio signals to monitor suspicious shipping activity, vessels that tamper with or disable AIS transponders are very often are engaged in smuggling or illegal fishing activity. Working in near time the SAR and radio receiver to pinpoint position of these vessels.

The Airbus Portsmouth developed the digital SAR taking advantage GaN solid state silicon amplifiers used for mobile base stations and will operate in the S-band (3.2 gigahertz), giving a best resolution of 6m with a swath width of 15-20km, though normally operate in lower definition over 400 km swaths, would need a constellation to give full coverage.

Airbus said NovaSAR is a step change in terms of what you can do for a particular amount of money. We've done lots of work on the next generation. NovaSAR is just the first in a family of instruments that will offer different capabilities, such as finer resolutions and other parameters and we will be putting those capabilities on smaller spacecraft than NovaSAR." Future variants will go to the higher frequency X-band and able to sense features on the ground as small as a metre across, and less.

The NovaSAR dates back to 2008/9 and was delayed by funding difficulties, currently funded by UK Govt. £21M and contributions from SSTL, Airbus, Australia and India. It is a little unfortunate therefore that the programme got delayed because in the meantime others have also managed to package radar systems into small volumes.

The Finnish start-up Iceye has a platform flying now that is the size of a suitcase, their aim to launch a constellation of sub 100kg radar micro-satellites and an American company called Capella is promising a radar satellite that is not much bigger than a shoebox.

ICEYE fits in a box that's 80cm by 60cm by 50cm and the antenna, once unfolded in orbit is only 3.5m in length.The low cost and size reflect use of COTS mobile components. The risk is in not using parts that have been built specifically, and proven, to operate in the harsh and unforgiving environment of space. The Iceye plan is to launch a constellation of satellites so you can tolerate if one spacecraft fails, the others are there to pick up the slack and by flying a network of satellites you get to the second major benefit which is power management.

The big and expensive satellites image for long periods during an orbit, flying as a single mission or maybe as just a pair of satellites, "always on" approach is necessary to acquire a meaningful volume of data, but that has consequences on how a spacecraft gathers and stores its solar energy to operate the radar instrument and how the system dissipates heat, all of which impact on size and cost.

The Iceye alternative is the short duty cycle, each of its micro-SARs will be imaging for just a few minutes on an orbit, which makes these power and cooling issues easier to handle and with lots of satellites, it is possible still to cover the same amount of ground - and image the same spot more frequently. Eighteen satellite constellation gets you London or Paris eight times a day, thirty satellite constellation provides you London/Paris 15 times a day.

Iceye "Right now we're using SAR data to try to track illegal fishing vessels or to look for refugee boats in the Mediterranean, but how can you do that if you only see the same spot every three days? "What if these boats pass through in the time in between. And that's what happens: these people know there is a satellite that's going to pass overhead, and when it does they carry on with what they were doing. It's the same with oil spills, you'll see the slick but the ship responsible is gone."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-42648391
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-42725349
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-45523677

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby Ron5 » 17 Sep 2018, 17:33

Not with a 6m resolution.

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby shark bait » 18 Sep 2018, 07:41

Certainly a useful tool for tracking shipping. The UK trialed infrared tracking to protect its maritime reserves, radar is clearly a step up from this.

A nice reminder there is nowhere for a carrier to hide!
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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby NickC » 19 Sep 2018, 16:17

Additional info on microsatellite/cubesat SAR X-band promise of capabilities for a holy grail of world wide ocean surveillance in near real time.

Iceye 2017 video, first X-1 70 kg satellite was launched January 2018, check out from 3:40 onwards.

(US Capella Space claims/plans to offer customers access to global one-meter resolution SAR imagery, updated hourly. Capella plans to launch 36 satellites, 12 satellites per year in 2019, 2020 and 2021. Iceye X-1 resolution 10 m, aiming for 3m, Airbus Portsmouth target is 1m)


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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby shark bait » 20 Sep 2018, 12:38

Great talk! Interesting to hear a constellation of 18 satellites is enough to cover the whole planet every three hours. With both the size and launch costs both declining that type of constellation is easily achievable.

That resolution and update rate is adequate for tracking surface moments over a large area, and how about keeping an eye on submarine deployments? Is that a useful tool to keep the P8 focused on listening under the water?

The USN employ the Triton for that role, and to me it already looks outdated with synthetic aperture radar constellations looking like a far better solution. Every now and then I hear rumors about the RAF looking towards Triton to complement P8, I hope they stay away.
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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby Ron5 » 20 Sep 2018, 17:48

shark bait wrote:Great talk! Interesting to hear a constellation of 18 satellites is enough to cover the whole planet every three hours. With both the size and launch costs both declining that type of constellation is easily achievable.

That resolution and update rate is adequate for tracking surface moments over a large area, and how about keeping an eye on submarine deployments? Is that a useful tool to keep the P8 focused on listening under the water?

The USN employ the Triton for that role, and to me it already looks outdated with synthetic aperture radar constellations looking like a far better solution. Every now and then I hear rumors about the RAF looking towards Triton to complement P8, I hope they stay away.


How can a satellite radar keep track of a submarine?

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 20 Sep 2018, 18:03

Ron5 wrote:How can a satellite radar keep track of a submarine?


This wake tracking has been much overblown, and in "my books" while not being a scientist: you will first need to locate it, and then you can "wake track" it.

Ehhrm: my disclaimer of " not a scientist" does not cover Big Data; relevance, applicability, ways to do it ;)

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby shark bait » 21 Sep 2018, 08:02

Ron5 wrote:How can a satellite radar keep track of a submarine?


It can't, but it can probably keep an eye out for when a submarine leaves base, that's what I was referring to.
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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 21 Sep 2018, 08:46

Public domain stuff, from half a decade back (bearing in mind how long it takes for things like this to make it into the public domain):

Submarine Matters: Satellite Detection of Submarines.
gentleseas.blogspot.com/.../satellite-detection-of-submarines.html

Vertaal deze pagina
11 apr. 2012 - The US Lacrosse Satellite uses Synthetic Aperture Radar to see .... and author Norman Polmar, certain satellites can track submarine wakes...

+
Russia to build submarine-detecting satellite - NASA Spaceflight ...
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index ... ic=21273.0

Vertaal deze pagina
16 apr. 2010 - Russia to build submarine-detecting satellite. ... to do it is to use radar to detect the surface bulge caused by a submarine traveling ... The idea isn't to track the relatively tiny submarine, but the much bigger wake left by the sub.

From further down, it is a bit of a challenge for an MPA (not so much to track it, but to find it in the first place)
- now, 1+1=3 ;) , also with this problem

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby shark bait » 21 Sep 2018, 09:40

Is there any good analysis on how effective wake detection is?

It pops up every now and then but I'm never convinced it can be effective over a broad area, much like sniffing for the exhaust.
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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 21 Sep 2018, 14:53

All this satellite stuff seems more applicable to a NATO project like SOSUS was with the US taking the lead. By the way is SOSUS still up and running or was it another victim of the "Peace Dividend"?

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 21 Sep 2018, 16:49

Lord Jim wrote:All this satellite stuff seems more applicable to a NATO project like SOSUS was with the US taking the lead. By the way is SOSUS still up and running or was it another victim of the "Peace Dividend"?


You are right on all accounts (question marks included)

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby Halidon » 21 Sep 2018, 17:13

Lord Jim wrote:All this satellite stuff seems more applicable to a NATO project like SOSUS was with the US taking the lead. By the way is SOSUS still up and running or was it another victim of the "Peace Dividend"?

"Classic" SOSUS is not around anymore. We wanted to move to systems which were easier to upgrade, could be moved to hotspots as needed, and were less easily mapped. The Russians also bought a bunch of deep-submergence subs which could monkey with something like SOSUS, today we worry about those futzing with seabed fiber optic cable.

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 21 Sep 2018, 17:32

Halidon wrote: monkey with something like SOSUS, today we worry about those futzing with seabed fiber optic cable.


Exactly it; they have been doing it for decades (as in recce & building up the capability) and now, in the last three years or so, we suddenly "wake up" to it?

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby The Armchair Soldier » 22 Sep 2018, 00:18

Good discussion chaps but we’re veering a little too far away from the subject of the topic: P-8 Poseidon. If someone wants to create a general discussion topic for ASW, please feel free and I’ll move the last few posts over so the discussion can continue there. Let’s get back to discussing P-8 in this topic.

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 22 Sep 2018, 02:44

Mk.1 has been added by the RAF to the designation.I wonder what they will do with the "M" , to begin with, if our further purchases will be for the Multirole version? Worry about Mk.2 later :) The following don't have any such a postfix:Lightning, Rivet Joint, Globemaster
- Globemasters were on lease initially, so the expectation of Mk.2 not coming around is easy to understand
- River Joints will evolve internally, if at all, so some rationale there, too
- Lightning 2 is already "2" so adding Mk.1 does not "fly" so well. However, the type will be around to 2050s and surely what we are buying now will evolve into something else (significantly better; the engine upgrade is already in the pipeline) for any further purchases, say in late 20s/ early 30s

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 22 Sep 2018, 12:05

Other platforms will eventually get their UK style designations so we will probably see the Lightning FGA Mk2 for example with the Mk reserved for the developmental aircraft stateside. If any alterations have been made to the Globemaster compared to the vanilla version it will probably bet a C Mk2 designation and with the Joint Rivet it could be either a R Mk1 or R Mk2.

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby RichardIC » 07 Oct 2018, 10:17



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