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Boeing P-8A Poseidon (MRA Mk.1) (RAF)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (Future Maritime Patrol Aircraft) (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 25 Apr 2018, 18:12

indeid wrote:Is there no process for ‘misunderstandings’ like this to be rectified before these reviews are published?


They used to defend the whole year's delay with exactly that.
- may be :) the delay has been cut? At least the contents have, as the focus is now fully on cost estimation and apportioning/ checking funding (not on what we are going to get, and e.g. what are the operational consequences of not getting delivery, or of major delays).

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (Future Maritime Patrol Aircraft) (RAF)

Postby Aethulwulf » 28 Apr 2018, 06:43

Interesting written evidence to the Defence Select Committee on P-8 numbers.

They state there is a need for 16 aircraft and 57 crews to cover all of current tasks, compared against the current plan for 9 aircraft and 18 crews.

http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/defence-committee/modernising-defence-programme/written/81406.html

http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/defence-committee/modernising-defence-programme/written/81475.html

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (Future Maritime Patrol Aircraft) (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 28 Apr 2018, 07:28

This "extremely weak state of NATO ASW-capable MPA forces in Europe. This situation is worsened by the redeployment of most United States MPA ASW squadrons from Europe to the Far East." picked up from the latter of the above linked written evidence reminded me that is can't be all bad, with the reopening of Keflavik (and Norway becoming the third tip of the triangle, with their own P-8 force chipping in)?

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (Future Maritime Patrol Aircraft) (RAF)

Postby NickC » 29 Apr 2018, 09:04

P-8A Increment 3 - DOD GAO Weapon Systems Annual Assessment, April report 18-360SP p118

Increment 3 design changes intended to provide enhanced capabilities in four areas. The first two include communications, radar, and weapons upgrades in current a/c, the second two are a new open systems architecture, add improvements to the combat system’s ability to process and display classified information, and enhance the P-8A’s search, detection, and targeting capabilities. [under past testing by DOT&E ASW has proved ineffective]

One of the most significant developments in Increment 3 is the upgrade of the combat system, ECP 6. This set of capabilities will require the integration of new hardware and software, including hardware changes to the aircraft. The combat system upgrade includes an application-based open system architecture that will allow the program to compete the development and integration of future capabilities. The program plans to complete the development and integration of the combat system into the aircraft in fiscal year 2022. The last upgrade in Increment 3 is dependent on combat system hardware updates.

Increment 3 initial operating capability is planned for fiscal year 2024 and these capabilities are to be incorporated into all P-8A aircraft by 2034.

The question arises why UK buying its a/c now when it may be they may not be modified to an effective full operational capability till the 2030's with the ability of incorporating future new advanced capabilities, the future upgrade will no doubt very expensive and time consuming. If buy held off to 2022 Inc 3 will be in production. As always a trade off but expect if current plan buy held will be a very expensive one.

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (Future Maritime Patrol Aircraft) (RAF)

Postby shark bait » 30 Apr 2018, 09:44

Good find @Aethulwulf, its been clear 9 isn't enough and its very nice to finally have some data to back that idea up.

I'd suggest the RAF needs to sustain a minimum of 2 patrols, at long range, so it can support a carrier group, and continue routine North Atlantic patrols at the same time.

According to Roberts table that sticks the requirement between 10 and 16 aircraft with at least 2 crew per aircraft.

Has to be noted that's only to cover the MPA role, more aircraft are needed to cover the overland role when P8 replaces Sentinel.

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (Future Maritime Patrol Aircraft) (RAF)

Postby NickC » 16 Jun 2018, 15:48

The Air Launch Accessory component LongShot to be fitted to the Mk 54 LWT as part of the P-8A High-Altitude Anti-Submarine Warfare Weapons Capability (HAAWC) program. Boeing is to be awarded a sole-source contract for full-rate production.
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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (Future Maritime Patrol Aircraft) (RAF)

Postby dmereifield » 17 Jul 2018, 22:37



Underwhelming, 2 by 2020....

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (Future Maritime Patrol Aircraft) (RAF)

Postby R686 » 18 Jul 2018, 01:01

dmereifield wrote:


Underwhelming, 2 by 2020....


Really you ordered in 2017 and 1st aircraft in 2019, 2years bloody good if you ask me.

It had taken the RAAF 3 years to get the 1st Super Hornets and the USN had given up production slots other wise we were looking at 5/6 years for the first airframes. In context you doing well.

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (Future Maritime Patrol Aircraft) (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 18 Jul 2018, 01:04

R686 wrote:Really you ordered in 2017 and 1st aircraft in 2019, 2years bloody good if you ask me.


It's actually pretty decent like you say. One of the RAF pilots on Seedcorn has actually now got 1,000 hours on type as well so we're not going to be short of well trained crews.

The article also confirms Mk.54 and surprisingly Harpoon.....

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (Future Maritime Patrol Aircraft) (RAF)

Postby seaspear » 18 Jul 2018, 03:53

Would the Poseidon s for the U.K hae the ability for air to air refuelling to increase patrol times

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (Future Maritime Patrol Aircraft) (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 18 Jul 2018, 05:00

Timmymagic wrote:The article also confirms Mk.54 and surprisingly Harpoon.....


India bought theirs with Harpoon (and MAD).

https://static4.uk.businessinsider.com/ ... 48-055.jpg

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (Future Maritime Patrol Aircraft) (RAF)

Postby RichardIC » 18 Jul 2018, 06:14

seaspear wrote:Would the Poseidon s for the U.K hae the ability for air to air refuelling to increase patrol times


Naturally, they have the standard boom receptacle.

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (Future Maritime Patrol Aircraft) (RAF)

Postby R686 » 18 Jul 2018, 08:23

RichardIC wrote:
seaspear wrote:Would the Poseidon s for the U.K hae the ability for air to air refuelling to increase patrol times


Naturally, they have the standard boom receptacle.


That PPP for AAR is really starting to bite you on the arse :cry:

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (Future Maritime Patrol Aircraft) (RAF)

Postby seaspear » 18 Jul 2018, 08:37

I ask that question because of earlier reports in the U.K media in December 2015 that the new Airbus could not provide air to air refuelling for the Poseidon Im aware that U.S.N and R.A.A.F Poseidons have the aircraft to provide such

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (Future Maritime Patrol Aircraft) (RAF)

Postby RichardIC » 18 Jul 2018, 08:43

seaspear wrote:I ask that question because of earlier reports in the U.K media in December 2015 that the new Airbus could not provide air to air refuelling for the Poseidon Im aware that U.S.N and R.A.A.F Poseidons have the aircraft to provide suc


AirTanker have said they are happy to fit booms to the K2s, at a cost obviously. The ball is in the MoD’s court.

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (Future Maritime Patrol Aircraft) (RAF)

Postby seaspear » 18 Jul 2018, 10:04

Then coming back to the numbers of Poseidon would,nt it be more effective and cheaper to equip tankers with the flying boom to increase mission hours and range of the ordered aircraft before purchasing more Poseidons

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (Future Maritime Patrol Aircraft) (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 18 Jul 2018, 12:36

seaspear wrote:Then coming back to the numbers of Poseidon would,nt it be more effective and cheaper to equip tankers with the flying boom to increase mission hours and range of the ordered aircraft before purchasing more Poseidons


All depends if you think there are enough AAR assets to be sent out to meet Poseidons at their patrol orbits, not much point Poseidon turning for home to be met half way there by AAR.

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (Future Maritime Patrol Aircraft) (RAF)

Postby Halidon » 18 Jul 2018, 18:10

seaspear wrote:Then coming back to the numbers of Poseidon would,nt it be more effective and cheaper to equip tankers with the flying boom to increase mission hours and range of the ordered aircraft before purchasing more Poseidons

I would argue that additional aircraft have more uses than just covering for endurance limitations, especially since the UK is starting from 0. I would absolutely encourage them to boom their tankers sooner rather than later, but the Poseidons can make do until then. While they can't depend on the option in all cases, in an emergency they could assume (Present President aside) that the US would make refueling assets available for the P-8s.

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby SKB » 20 Aug 2018, 16:36


(Royal Air Force) Published 14 Jul 2018
The Defence Secretary presented two British aircrews with 1,000 flying hour certificates after they reached the milestone in the submarine-hunting Poseidon Maritime Patrol Aircraft being purchased by the UK.



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^ Artists impression, not a photo. Thread name also adjusted.

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby AndyC » 20 Aug 2018, 17:03

No real surprise that our Poseidons come with Harpoon.

Bit disappointing that HAAWC won't be made to work with Sting Ray as we have such large stocks.

I think we have to get real about Poseidon numbers. An order for an additional 7 could cost up to £2 billion at today's woeful exchange rate and there just isn't the room in the next ten years equipment budget!

One partial solution is for the USN to operate some of their Poseidons from RAF Lossiemouth and I note the other day they announced a £63 million investment for more US personnel to be based there http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/16585795.donald-trumps-63m-for-air-base-to-help-spy-on-russian-subs/

Also, there's the sub-hunting co-operation deal with Norway https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/08/06/uk-norway-sub-hunters-will-work-together-counter-russian-naval/

Finally, if we still want to do something more ourselves we should develop a maritime version of the Protector UCAV https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/new-maritime-capability-developed-for-mq-9-417133/

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby shark bait » 21 Aug 2018, 08:19

*also keep Sentinel so Poseidon can operate without the burden of desert surveillance.

**also consider Global Eye with its multi mission goodies?
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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 21 Aug 2018, 18:09

AndyC wrote:No real surprise that our Poseidons come with Harpoon.

Bit disappointing that HAAWC won't be made to work with Sting Ray as we have such large stocks.


Whats surprising is that we don't speak to the Norgies and get JSM with our P-8. They and the Aussies are paying for the integration costs.

And as for HAAWC the decision makes no sense. If HAAWC couldn't be made to work with Stingray then MBDA could knock a competitor up in a heartbeat, they've got wing kits like Diamondback in their product catalogue already. All that must be cheaper overall than buying Mk.54 and HAAWC from the US. The test campaign for Stingray and wing kit weapons release would be straight forward, with an MPA there's not a huge weapons release envelope to explore for torps.

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 21 Aug 2018, 18:53

Do we know which version of Harpoon we are going to be using on the Poseidon? Which ever it is we will probably only purchase a pretty small batch to tide the fleet over until the RN decides where it is going with its anti-ship missile programmes. Although there is a long term plan to develop a joint missile with the French, I can see the UK adopting US systems as a means to save money and a NSM/JSM mix a possibility may be with a smaller number of LRASMs.

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby AndyC » 22 Aug 2018, 17:32

Call me a cynic but maybe it's no coincidence that HAAWC, Harpoon II+ER and SLAM-ER are the weapons range on offer with the Poseidon and they're all Boeing products.

Certainly I would have thought that using pre-existing Sting Ray torpedoes with HAAWC would be cheaper than buying brand new Mk 54's but maybe not as Boeing could control (fix) the cost of integration.

Harpoon II+ER kits will be available in 2019 and will surely equip our Poseidons in 2020 https://www.janes.com/article/77914/harpoon-block-ii-seeker-upgrade-included-in-us-fy-2019-budget. Once they're in service with the RAF then I doubt the Navy would be allowed to buy something different and create two small orders with separate maintenance contracts etc.

And here's what the Minister said https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-question/Commons/2018-05-16/144839/

As for the future I can't believe once we've got the Mk 54 we'd then go to the expense of replacing them.

But I think there is a definite case for integrating Storm Shadow instead of SLAM-ER.

For the longer term there's the Anglo-French FCASW from 2030 so we'd be mad to go for the LRASM which is a direct competitor.


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