Boeing P-8A Poseidon (MRA Mk.1) (RAF)

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Lord Jim
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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (MRA Mk.1) (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

The idea is sound in principal as long as additional aircraft are purchased. With the possibility of also replacing the four RC-135s at a later date the savings in support costs only add to the argument for such a purchase. But as mentioned the need for money up front to purchase additional aircraft when resources are so tight will be a considerable hurdle and require the Treasury to see to long term benefits.

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (MRA Mk.1) (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

Support the aviation industry in Broughton or Seattle in a post covid world with government cash.

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (MRA Mk.1) (RAF)

Post by Ron5 »

SW1 wrote:Support the aviation industry in Broughton or Seattle in a post covid world with government cash.
Your government seems fine with that. Seems daft to me but what do I know?

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (MRA Mk.1) (RAF)

Post by whitelancer »

jonas wrote:A case for replacing Sentinal R.1 with P-8A :-
Madness.

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (MRA Mk.1) (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

The Sentinel fleet has ended up in a similar situation to that of the Sentry fleet through a different route. It will be costly to extend the service life and bring the remaining four platforms up to the level needed by introducing upgrades and replacing obsolescence parts. As pointed out spares are lacking as is personnel and training assets. how quickly additional P-8s with the AAS could be brought into service is important as will the additional cost of the sensor. The most likely scenario is going to be the retirement of the Sentinels next year and a capability gap until a replacement can the funded.

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (MRA Mk.1) (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

Lord Jim wrote:The Sentinel fleet has ended up in a similar situation to that of the Sentry fleet through a different route. It will be costly to extend the service life and bring the remaining four platforms up to the level needed by introducing upgrades and replacing obsolescence parts. As pointed out spares are lacking as is personnel and training assets. how quickly additional P-8s with the AAS could be brought into service is important as will the additional cost of the sensor. The most likely scenario is going to be the retirement of the Sentinels next year and a capability gap until a replacement can the funded.
Nothing remotely like Sentry. Failure to put in place a proper thru life contract Is resolved by putting one in place.

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (MRA Mk.1) (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Lord Jim wrote:how quickly additional P-8s with the AAS could be brought into service is important as will the additional cost of the sensor.
+ any additional P-8s would be dual role
+ not all in the fleet need the expensive upgrade/ add-on
- does one get even one such P-8 for the price of the 4 (or the original 5) bizjets?

If we go from bizjet (endurance) cum armed (Tornado, self escorting) wide-area surveillance to a fat airliner only... could explain why we need so many (expensive) unmanned Protectors: can afford to lose some?
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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (MRA Mk.1) (RAF)

Post by Jdam »

Do we know if the AAS can be fitted any P-8? or does it require special brackets installed on the P-8 before hand?

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (MRA Mk.1) (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

SW1 wrote:Nothing remotely like Sentry. Failure to put in place a proper thru life contract Is resolved by putting one in place.
As I stated they have ended up in the same situation buy different routes, in that availability, spares shortages, too few aircrew and ground support personnel, fleet cut to save a few peenies and so on.

As for the AAS on the P-8, would it be an option to buy a simpler/cheaper version that was still tooled for the sensor, making it more a Maritime Patrol platform rather than an ASW one, to supplement the P-8s. This would not help with the workload of the P-8s but it would remove the need for them to be used in the overland surveillance role. It would also not remove the need for additional full capability P-8s either.

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (MRA Mk.1) (RAF)

Post by Jdam »

Part of me thinks it would kind of defeat the point if we started having 2 variations of the aircraft (one AAS and maritime patrol). imo the advantage of the AAS is that it can be fitted onto any P-8 (if that’s true), from this you are getting a lot more use out of an existing asset. But because we like to make things more difficult for ourselves, we are in the position of trying to get our Martine portal back up, while losing another asset that this platform could also possibly replace.

Imagine if this was taking place after we had gotten all 9 aircraft, it might seem a bit more feasible to buy a few more to expand the MPA while also taking over land surveillance role.

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (MRA Mk.1) (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

Lord Jim wrote:
SW1 wrote:Nothing remotely like Sentry. Failure to put in place a proper thru life contract Is resolved by putting one in place.
As I stated they have ended up in the same situation buy different routes, in that availability, spares shortages, too few aircrew and ground support personnel, fleet cut to save a few peenies and so on.

As for the AAS on the P-8, would it be an option to buy a simpler/cheaper version that was still tooled for the sensor, making it more a Maritime Patrol platform rather than an ASW one, to supplement the P-8s. This would not help with the workload of the P-8s but it would remove the need for them to be used in the overland surveillance role. It would also not remove the need for additional full capability P-8s either.
And they haven’t ended in the same place. The sentinel a/c has due to its continuous use on operations been kept up to date, sentry was not. Crew were cut as cost saving measure and the fact it has been treated like a UOR for a while is why the support arrangements are not on a solid footing. It also fails to recognise there is a design, integration and overall capacity at broughton with proposals to take it fwd should the MOD wish, the same team that has been doing the shadow upgrade and had hoped to then move fwd with sentinel keeping a team today instead they will laid off on conclusion in favour of handing yet more work on a plate to the Pacific Northwest for zero return to UK economy and it’s gdp for an inferior product not to mention maintain a skill set within the UK that could look at sigint, ew or communication variants on the gx platform which a number of airforces around the world are adopting including the US.

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (MRA Mk.1) (RAF)

Post by R686 »

1.3b USD will get you the RAAF MC-55A “Peregrine” of 4 aircraft. But I think it would be cheaper to just upgrade the R1 unless the airframes life are coming the end

Considering the R1 are faster have more endurance and more than likely more economical to operate than P8 it seems like a no brainer to me.

4 additional P8 will really be need for ASW even that that will really not be enough just look at the planned MRA.4 project in reduced numbers will give a broad idea on numbers needed

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (MRA Mk.1) (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

SW1 wrote:The sentinel a/c has due to its continuous use on operations been kept up to date, sentry was not
Are all four aircraft both serviceable and of the same standard/configuration? Have they been kept up to date through a ongoing development programme or have improvements been added on the fly. Both the E-3 and R-1 have suffered from lack of investment and proper long term programme management, and both are seen as too expensive when it comes to taking the necessary corrective measures. The issue is going to be whether the R-1 is replaced or the it provides capability is lost, like what has happened with the retirement of the Canberra PR-9 and its "Sensor" and the Tornado and the Raptor pod.

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (MRA Mk.1) (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Lord Jim wrote: both are seen as too expensive when it comes to taking the necessary corrective measures. The issue is going to be whether the R-1 is replaced or the it provides capability is lost, like what has happened with the retirement of the Canberra PR-9 and its "Sensor" and the Tornado and the Raptor pod.
Too expensive must be seen in the context, e.g. R1 cheap on operations (can anyone count on how many they have been), but an expensive luxury to have "in the desk drawer" and of dubious value in a peer conflict.

E-3 became too expensive simply through savings on upgrades stacking up... and it became cheaper to buy new.

Now that "cheaper" has gone up in forecast cost by 45% within a year... and in a perverse way these two fleets will come together: canning of the cheap bizjets sooner rather than later, to cover the cost increase in bringing into service the next "AWACS" which definitely isn't a luxury under most scenarios.
- and that brings us back the the thread header: buying AAS becomes a must (but it will only be available from 2022, and indeed needs the a/c to be in service, to deploy the capability... could anyone come up with a better excuse to take a couple of year capability holiday :idea: )
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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (MRA Mk.1) (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

Ah the joys of MoD procurement policy and its underlying logic. :D

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (MRA Mk.1) (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

It is good entertainment though as with the same effort one can try to revive the lost art of Kremnology (put the picture together from small nuggets of information) and be reading a Hitchcock horror story.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (MRA Mk.1) (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

Lord Jim wrote:
SW1 wrote:The sentinel a/c has due to its continuous use on operations been kept up to date, sentry was not
Are all four aircraft both serviceable and of the same standard/configuration? Have they been kept up to date through a ongoing development programme or have improvements been added on the fly. Both the E-3 and R-1 have suffered from lack of investment and proper long term programme management, and both are seen as too expensive when it comes to taking the necessary corrective measures. The issue is going to be whether the R-1 is replaced or the it provides capability is lost, like what has happened with the retirement of the Canberra PR-9 and its "Sensor" and the Tornado and the Raptor pod.
Infact the 5th a/c had been undergoing overhaul to return to operational standard.

E3 had a problem in that there was a much larger multinational fleet all of which had been thru several upgrades compared to our quite young airframes and it was simply a case of bring it up to the same standard or it won’t be supported anymore.

Sentinel is unique to the RAF and design authority resides within the uk so it can do what it likes, it can continue for a while as is but like anything it’s getting to point where you would consider a mid life update with the radar being the primary candidate for replacement, many options. exist including potentially leonardo. It would certainly be cheaper both to upgrade and run than more 737s. This is likely being sacrificed on the alter of we can’t afford the p8s we’ve currently ordered just like we told you banner.



On the point of venerability in a peer conflict well that can be said about anything and why being higher flying giving better standoff and having multi a/c instead of one high value target as well as a defensive aid system are about as good as it gets in minimising risks unless you plan on moving into the extremely expensive category.

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (MRA Mk.1) (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

I am actually a big an of the R-1 and I could see potential capability bonuses from say using "Loyal Wingmen" as additional nodes to focus on specific areas and as possible escorts. I do wish we had modified 3 to 4 Global Express to carry the Canberra PR-9s "Sensor" to team up with the R-1s though. That pair could have tracked and found a bad guy and then provide live pictures on which you could count the hairs on his arse. :lol:

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (MRA Mk.1) (RAF)

Post by Dahedd »

Surely one option is to retain the Sentinal, even if they lose say 1 to keep the fleet then replace the Royal Flight 146 with a version of the aircraft. Those aircraft could even double as pod carriers as suggested above by Lord Jim.

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (MRA Mk.1) (RAF)

Post by shark bait »

Jdam wrote:Do we know if the AAS can be fitted any P-8? or does it require special brackets installed on the P-8 before hand?
It needs special brackets that lower the radar down below the engines to give a clear field of view. Only a couple of USN aircraft have this fitted.
@LandSharkUK

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (MRA Mk.1) (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

shark bait wrote:Only a couple of USN aircraft have this fitted.
Because it is still in test. ISD was aimed for in 2022; have not followed up with it, if that still holds.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (MRA Mk.1) (RAF)

Post by bobp »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Because it is still in test.
I read a couple of months back that the USN has no plans to fit the Multi Mission Pod or AAS to its fleet. Whether that still holds I don't know for sure. But its certainly still in test.

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (MRA Mk.1) (RAF)

Post by jonas »

Parliamentary written answers 20th May 2020 :-

Asked by Dr Julian Lewis
(New Forest East)
[N]
Asked on: 15 May 2020
Ministry of Defence
Sentinel Aircraft
47167
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, in which (a) conventional and (b) counterinsurgency campaigns Sentinel aircraft have seen action since their entry into service; what the original design life of each Sentinel aircraft is, and by how much this can practicably be increased by a life extension project; whether the UK possesses alternative systems that can provide (i) strategic and (ii) tactical surveillance coverage over land equivalent to that currently provided by Sentinel; and how future land campaigns will adequately be conducted if a capability gap is created by the retirement of the Sentinel fleet.
A
Answered by: Jeremy Quin
Answered on: 20 May 2020

The Ministry of Defence has indicated that it will not be possible to answer this question within the usual time period. An answer is being prepared and will be provided as soon as it is available.

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (MRA Mk.1) (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Upthread I used the expression of Sentinels having been on more Ops than anyone can count
... seems to be true :)
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, in which (a) conventional and (b) counterinsurgency campaigns Sentinel aircraft have seen action since their entry into service
An answer is being prepared and will be provided as soon as it is available.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Boeing P-8A Poseidon (MRA Mk.1) (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

shark bait wrote:It needs special brackets that lower the radar down below the engines to give a clear field of view. Only a couple of USN aircraft have this fitted.
It also needs ventral fins/strakes added to the aircraft. Only a small number of US P-8 have these. None of the UK P-8 have been fitted to date. I suspect the first we'll know of an AAS order for the UK is when a P-8 arrives at Lossiemouth with some mystery fins attached...

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