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Boeing P-8A Poseidon (MRA Mk.1) (RAF)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby abc123 » 28 Jan 2019, 18:49

NickC wrote:The USN announced $2.46 billion contract award to Boeing yesterday for 19 P-8As, 10 for the USN, 5 for Norway and 4 for the UK. The UK $507M, Norway $695M.


"Norway ordered the five aircraft in March 2017. The project is expected to cost 9,825 billion Norwegian Krone (approx. EUR 1,1 billion) including the acquisition of sensors, anti-submarine weapons and supporting equipment."

https://navaltoday.com/2019/01/28/boein ... uk-norway/

So, about 220 mil. euros ( or about 250 mil. USD ) per plane for Norway.
Or, 3,9 billion USD for 9 Posidons for the UK- about 433 mil. USD per plane for the UK.
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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby Mercator » 29 Jan 2019, 00:43

topman wrote:
Lord Jim wrote:So we have sufficient trained and actually experienced air crew ready for the P-8, what about maintainers and infrastructure, do we have sufficient of the former and the latter in place yet?


No this is the first set of groundcrew out on training and (i believe) that infrastructure build is still ongoing. However it'll be a couple of years yet before we can start in house training.


The training aids require dedicated infrastructure, are expensive, but pretty amazing.
http://australianaviation.com.au/2018/0 ... ng-centre/

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby Gabriele » 29 Jan 2019, 08:29

So, about 220 mil. euros ( or about 250 mil. USD ) per plane for Norway.
Or, 3,9 billion USD for 9 Posidons for the UK- about 433 mil. USD per plane for the UK.


The fact that Norway is looking at having crews trained in Lossiemouth and aircraft serviced there should make it clear what the difference is due to. Or at least a good part of it.
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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 29 Jan 2019, 12:18

Gabriele wrote: looking at having crews trained in Lossiemouth and aircraft serviced there

Some people have more money than sense; our friends in Norway seem to have plenty of both

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 29 Jan 2019, 13:14

Maybe there is an opportunity to turn Lossiemouth into the NATO hub for P-8 Training and maintenance, plus for any other allied nations who wish to use it. I have a feeling there are going to be more nations investing in the platform as the rival Airbus offering is still on the drawing board.

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 29 Jan 2019, 13:21

One other thing, I really hope we have no intention of using our P-8s over land ever. We used the Nimrods because we had nothing else at the time. Just because they could doesn't mean we should.

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby Scimitar54 » 29 Jan 2019, 19:19

The clue is in the uk aircraft type designation :mrgreen:

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 29 Jan 2019, 19:47

Lord Jim wrote:over land ever
Freedom to decide will arrive in 2022/23 (if the upgrades planned in the US come in on schedule; no, they won't give the upgrades to us for free. Even if we wished... to receive them)

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 29 Jan 2019, 23:33

But why would we want to? We will only have nine airframes, which is barely enough, if at all, to carry out their maritime responsibilities, and we now have the Reapers/Protectors doing the job the Nimrod were doing in Afghan.

As for the title, it needs to be taken as a whole with the first the primary theatre, so Recce and attack in a maritime theatre.

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 30 Jan 2019, 05:13

Lord Jim wrote:We will only have nine airframes, which is barely enough, if at all, to carry out their maritime responsibilities
That should be the starting point for any further deliberations.

I think we are leaning in the same direction:
- leverage the maritime role (modest numbers in the fleet) by adding an unmanned companion
- over land, go smaller, as we are not talking about traversing an ocean before starting to fish. And this 'smaller' does not presuppose whether manned, unmanned or a mix

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby SW1 » 30 Jan 2019, 09:58

Lord Jim wrote:But why would we want to? We will only have nine airframes, which is barely enough, if at all, to carry out their maritime responsibilities, and we now have the Reapers/Protectors doing the job the Nimrod were doing in Afghan.

As for the title, it needs to be taken as a whole with the first the primary theatre, so Recce and attack in a maritime theatre.


I don’t think reaper is/was doing the job of nimrod over Afghan.

However as the it would appear the plan is to scrap the unique outside of US and extremely heavy tasked a/c on the alter of p8 I would expect using p8 overland will be required or the task simply gapped.

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 30 Jan 2019, 10:20

SW1 wrote: it would appear the plan is to scrap the unique outside of US and extremely heavy tasked a/c on the alter of p8


Ohh, again?

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby NickC » 30 Jan 2019, 10:38

The Carbonite-2 optical reconnaissance satellite launched last March into low earth orbit brings capability to track vehicles, aircraft and ships in still images and colour video, can undertake rapid tasking of satellites and provide fast data download within minutes of acquisition, using COTS telescope and high-definition video, one metre resolution images and 60 sec video clips with a swath of 5 kilometers. Limitations limited time over object of interest until constellation in orbit.

Built by Surrey Satellite Technology, Airbus company, launched on an Indian rocket from the Satish Dhawan Space Centre in Sriharikota, India. Funded by Earth-i, a commercial imagery provider, who are in turn partially funded by MOD/RAF to the tune of £4.5M. Constellation of five satellites ordered.

Complementary to the S-band (3.2 gigahertz) radar satellite NovaSAR launched last September, with a best resolution of 6m with a swath width of 15-20km, future variants will go to the higher-frequency X-band for higher resolution of one metre and less.

Wikipedia- A low Earth orbit requires the lowest amount of energy for satellite placement. It provides high bandwidth and low communication latency, used by spy satellites, earth observation, Hubble, Int Space Station etc. It requires less energy to place a satellite into a LEO, and a satellite there needs less powerful amplifiers for successful transmission, LEO is used for many communication applications.
Disadvantages, Satellites in LEO have a small momentary field of view, only able to observe and communicate with a fraction of the Earth at a time, meaning a network /constellation of satellites is required to in order to provide continuous coverage. Satellites in lower regions of LEO also suffer from fast orbital decay, requiring either periodic re-boosting to maintain a stable orbit, or launching replacement satellites when old ones re-enter.


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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 30 Jan 2019, 15:19

NickC wrote: who are in turn partially funded by MOD/RAF to the tune of £4.5M


Happen to know where the rest comes from? I'm sure that level of accuracy could track the spread of forest fires, at the same frequency that it is feasible to reposition fire fighting engines/ units.
- or weed out rogue ships in busy sea traffic lanes when all the legit ones have their transponders turned on

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby Qwerty » 30 Jan 2019, 19:48

We make do with the tools we have, not want we would like to have.

In the absence of something purposeful, the next best thing will do. including Poseidon.

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 31 Jan 2019, 00:15

I really don't like the idea of the P-8s being used for overland recce. I didn't like the Nimrods being used in the role but as I mentioned earlier we didn't have anything else to do the job. These were MR2As no the "R" Birds., who might have been there but wasn't publicized for obvious reasons. What would a P-8 bring to the capability basket overland that a Protector or other ISTAR platform doesn't besides Torpedoes?

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby Qwerty » 31 Jan 2019, 08:41

That would depend on the enemy, the operational theatre and the RAF assets available.

e.g. If the Air-seeker was grounded over a safety concern and the next best thing available was a Poseidon, then i’d go with that rather than risk the enemy gaining an edge.

If the Red Arrows were on a display in Kuwait but a show of force was needed against ISIS in Iraq...
That might be stretching it too far?

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 31 Jan 2019, 16:43

But what sensors does the stock P-8 come with that would be of such use as to necessitate their use over land?

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 31 Jan 2019, 17:59

Lord Jim wrote: the stock P-8 come with


An upgrade... chargeable ;)

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby Little J » 31 Jan 2019, 18:04

In standard trim there shouldn't be any major need to operate overland.
But that goes well out of the window if they get any of Raytheon's Advanced Airborne Sensor (AAS) radar.

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 31 Jan 2019, 19:07

So does that turn it into a mini JSTARS? Maybe that could swing the decision to buy 3 or 4 more of them to replace the Sentinel fleet and together with the possible E-7 buy could give us a ISTAR fleet with a basically common airframe down the line.

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby Little J » 31 Jan 2019, 19:33

Lord Jim wrote:So does that turn it into a mini JSTARS?

It was actually Boeings proposal to replace JSTARS in the US (last I heard the USAF now want to use satellite's).

Lord Jim wrote:...together with the possible E-7 buy could give us a ISTAR fleet with a basically common airframe down the line.

That has been one of the arguments on here for the last few years (I'm in favour, but as a civvie my opinion counts for Foxtrot Alfa :D )

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby SW1 » 31 Jan 2019, 20:09

As we can’t afford the p8s we’re currently buying there is no chance of any more. sentinel is so heavily tasked they’re have huge issues getting them out of service to complete mayor overhauls just like there shadowy cousins.

Gulfstream are the likely jstars replacement platform if it goes ahead as there moving there compass call onto a gulfstream from the Hercules and Australia is buying. Where we pioneered others are following in considerable numbers. The USAF are so overspent on there fighter replacement programs all other budgets are being cut to fund it including jstars.. which is why the us army are looking for a high flying recon aircraft that may possibly look extremely similar to one we have.

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 31 Jan 2019, 20:18

Little J wrote: as a civvie my opinion counts for Foxtrot Alfa :D

I wonder what makes you say that?
Trace the media for echoes of what has been said/ raised here.

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Re: Boeing Poseidon MRA Mk.1 (Maritime Reconnaissance Attack) (RAF)

Postby topman » 31 Jan 2019, 21:04

Lord Jim wrote:But what sensors does the stock P-8 come with that would be of such use as to necessitate their use over land?



The nimrod mr2 found a fair bit to do for a sub hunter


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