Boeing P-8A Poseidon (MRA Mk.1) (RAF)

[Lord Jim]

Leave military contract alone, just ban UK airlines from ordering from Boeing until the situation improves.

[Halidon]

WIth the quite blatant case of US protectionism with regards to Boeing vs Bombardier is it time to look again at the P8 contract?

Perhaps the MoD still have Kawasaki on speed dial ?

Look out, way out where the sea touches the sky. See those white sails just about to disappear past the horizon? That's the good ship "which MPA should the UK buy?" and it sailed some time ago.

[ArmChairCivvy]

ban UK airlines from ordering from Boeing

A small technicality: UK airlines fly to the US under EU Open Skies agreement... something needs to be put in its place (in our "own time")

[MRCA]

If you don't want to touch military orders from Boeing fine. All Boeing products entering the U.K. For military or civil use should have a 220% tax placed on them payable by any budget holder that orders them. Level playing field for all provided it's not in boeings back yard.

We will ignore all the R&D government funded by thru NASA that miraculously ends up in Boeing products or the fact p8 ended up on a 737 purely because Boeing need to stabilise its future order book after 9/11.

Boeing p8 and apache have already blown thru there budget by 20% adding to the budget squeeze.

The factory's that make bombardier products are all in the constituencies of the MPs who allow the government to govern. If you don't think this has the potiential to be a rather large issue your dreaming.

Grimrod was way further down the service stream than p8 when it got chinned.

[ArmChairCivvy]

the fact p8 ended up on a 737 purely because Boeing need to stabilise its future order book after 9/11.

I agree, but was "that" a bad result?

blown thru there budget by 20% adding to the budget squeeze

Surely our own fault: we bought into balderdash, the 2008 crash has already made one working generation poorer than their parents, this move might add one or several to that line up... political turmoil ahead

If you don't think this has the potiential to be a rather large issue your dreaming.

A very good point. Mrs May has now hanged herself (her freedom for political manoeuvre; this is not a freezer story Number 2!) by so many threads that she is starting to look like a marionette

[MRCA]

I agree, but was "that" a bad result?

Yes, too much aircraft for the task.

[ArmChairCivvy]

too much aircraft for the task.

That is true, but then again the hi-bypass fuel economies were ushered in by that (improved) series. Rather than switching off every other engine in the 50's airframe design; innovation by the MoD/ BAE unbeatable team

Should we buy something from Bombardier instead, with GE's PurePower engines on it that run at an unprecedented bypass ratio of 12:1 ?
... so they would both (P-8 and "Next") fall onto the evolution line of engines with high bypass ratios (that can offer high thrust for a given amount of fuel). But, Bombardier could offer a smaller airframe (and we could make it in the UK... if by the time R-UK hasn't come about). "R" for Rump.

[Ron5]

May I assume that everyone here that is so convinced that Bombardier did not indulge in unfair pricing practices, has read through the evidence for and against?

I'd hate to think folks here are just picking up latent anti-Americanism from their latest Daily Shit.

Anyone equally outraged by the latest EU rulings levying billions of dollars of fines on US internet giants based on phony (I nearly wrote trumped up) charges?

Didn't think so.

[Ron5]

I agree, but was "that" a bad result?

Yes, too much aircraft for the task.

Was not the Nimrod MRA4 bigger than the P-8 Poseidon?

[Ron5]

The UK purchases of Apache & Poseidon are running over budget based on the wildly optimistic dollar exchange rates given to the MoD by the Treasury.

When the project was "booked": "Hey Treasury, what exchange rate should be assume for our $2 billion buy?" "Use $1.50, economy is booming no need to worry".

When bills become due: "Hey Treasury, exchange rate is $1.30, how can we bridge the gap?" "You're on your own buddy, just off to have lunch with Fleet Street to chat about how service chiefs are reckless spenders".

[indeid]

May I assume that everyone here that is so convinced that Bombardier did not indulge in unfair pricing practices, has read through the evidence for and against?

I'd hate to think folks here are just picking up latent anti-Americanism from their latest Daily Shit.

Anyone equally outraged by the latest EU rulings levying billions of dollars of fines on US internet giants based on phony (I nearly wrote trumped up) charges?

Didn't think so.

I think it's a great example of why you shouldn't go with the 'just buy from the US' mantra. Spreading where your kit comes from means that if a political landscape changes you won't be left hanging.

That also means paying over the odds to get something made in the UK has to happen, even if it does mean I have to continue to deal with BAe.....

It will rather screw up my grand idea to just buy Wedgetails in the near future, Swedish radar on top of a Bombardier jet anyone?

[MRCA]

Ron5

Not the daily shit no just the self righteous pricks in Seattle, just a little over a year ago this happened

“One major driver may be the serious discount United got from Boeing. I'm talking about a Black Friday kind of discount. The 737-700 is listed with a price tag of $80.6 million or roughly $5.24 billion for the 65 airplane deal.

United likely paid just $20 to $25 million per plane, Airways News senior business analyst Vinay Bhaskara told Business Insider. Forbes contributor Scott Hamilton reported that United signed on at $22 million. That's a whopping 73% discount!

Boeing declined to comment on the negotiated price of the deal, citing company policy. United wasn't immediately available to comment on the terms of the order.

Although airlines are generally able to negotiate price concessions on most airplane orders, they are usually in the order of 10% to 30%. A discount of 73% is not unprecedented, but it's exceedingly rare. “

http://uk.businessinsider.com/boeing-to ... ?r=US&IR=T

But I guess there fine when it’s too companies in the US doing it.

[Ron5]

I'll take that as a no, you have no idea of the specifics of the Bombardier case. Thought so.

[MRCA]

More than u

[Little J]

I'll take that as a no, you have no idea of the specifics of the Bombardier case. Thought so.

I hold my hands up and admit that I don't know specifics, but any suggestion that they did something that boeing (or anyone else) hasn't and isn't doing right now is just complete botox.

[jimthelad]

Now then lads, better not argue with the oracle

[ArmChairCivvy]

It is interesting that every topic gets a mudslinger coming out, with assertations (most often without facts) that other people then feel obliged to put right - with facts.

I suspect this is a new journalistic research method, and on my part I am done with it. My earlier response to such behavior was just to prune down on links (with the general idea "let them/ him do their/his own research").

I am writing this just a note to moderators of the forum; not that it would be difficult for me (if I take a self-interested approach) to step over such bumps in the road - and carry on merrily.
- which is exactly what I intend to do

[shark bait]

WIth the quite blatant case of US protectionism with regards to Boeing vs Bombardier is it time to look again at the P8 contract?

Leave military contract alone, just ban UK airlines from ordering from Boeing until the situation improves.

Yeah lets start a trade war with our biggest customer. Go Brexit!

[ArmChairCivvy]

Easy does it! Or our next SSBN paying a visit to Kings Bay might find a toll barrier erected, before getting to swap the Trident missiles to recently maintained ones:
"The Trident Refit Facility (TRF) is the largest tenant command at Kings Bay and has kept a significant portion of the United States Fleet Ballistic Missile submarines at sea since 1985.

The Trident Refit Facility possesses the largest covered drydock in the world, measuring 700 feet (210 m) long, 100 feet (30 m) wide, and 67 feet (20 m) deep. A state-of-the-art Magnetic Silencing Facility (MSF) provides degaussing services, including ranging and the removal of permanent magnetism for submarines of the U.S. Navy and the British Royal Navy"

[Tinman]

It is interesting that every topic gets a mudslinger coming out, with assertations (most often without facts) that other people then feel obliged to put right - with facts.

I suspect this is a new journalistic research method, and on my part I am done with it. My earlier response to such behavior was just to prune down on links (with the general idea "let them/ him do their/his own research").

I am writing this just a note to moderators of the forum; not that it would be difficult for me (if I take a self-interested approach) to step over such bumps in the road - and carry on merrily.
- which is exactly what I intend to do

Should see Meerkatz and a few others on Arrse.

[Lord Jim]

Ok take no action against Boeing or the USA. Probably a good idea as they think we a small fry anyhow and would pay any attention to any action we took. Better to stay on their good side and start criticising Bombardier for their business practices, have the DUP pull their support for the Government, it collapses, we have another election and JC becomes Prime Minister and everyone is happy.

[marktigger]

and of course JC will support the defence budget and P8.

wonder if the Bombardier aircraft could be a contender for something in the RAF

[shark bait]

The endurance of the C-Series is far to short to be of any use. The Global Express, now that a nice donor platform.

[Dahedd]

The endurance of the C-Series is far to short to be of any use. The Global Express, now that a nice donor platform.

Is it not a variant of the Global Express that SAAB are using as their Swordfish MPA concept ?


Btw more chat locally here that Kinloss may be reopened for the Poseidon fleet as there's an issue of some sort at Lossie. Chances are its just scuttlebutt & wishful thinking. The Royal Engineers are fairly well bedded in here now.

[MRCA]

Yep they are, IAI also offering an mpa option on GX

That maybe because there’s rumours both of the new typhoon sqns may stand up at Lossiemouth. 5 up there 2 at conningsby