BAE Replica (Future Offensive Air System) (Cancelled Project)

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SKB
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BAE Replica (Future Offensive Air System) (Cancelled Project)

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Introduction
Replica was a design study for a British military aircraft with stealth capabilities, developed by BAE Systems. It was associated with the Royal Air Force's now cancelled Future Offensive Air System. The Replica project is known to have run from 1994 to 1999 building a full size model and subjected to a rigorous test regime to determine its radar cross section. It is widely believed that Replica may have been intended to replace the Panavia Tornado from 2017 onwards. Experience from the program was later rolled into the Joint Strike Fighter program, which essentially replaced Replica.

Design
Replica was a twin-seat strike fighter that sported a V-tail arrangement to reduce radar cross-section and weight. The design of the aircraft is similar to the Northrop YF-23 and the joint BAE/McDonnell Douglas/Northrop Grumman proposal for the Joint Strike Fighter although Replica was independent of either aircraft. To fulfill the FOAS requirements, Replica was probably designed to accommodate an internal weapons bay capable of carrying ASRAAM air-to-air missiles for self-defence and laser-guided bombs in the 2000 lb range. Replica was a twin engine design, but as it did not pass the mock-up stage no engine was selected. The design hints at the use of 2D Thrust vectoring however this is unconfirmed. The design of the mock-up also suggests that it may have featured AESA radar in leading edges on the wings of the aircraft as the nose is too small to house Radar. The advantages of the leading edge AESA radar would be a wider coverage area. It could also be the case that the mock-up was unrepresentative of any potential production aircraft in regards to radar housing. Many of Replica's design features are classified by the British Ministry of Defence. Due to the sensitive nature that Stealth aircraft have in the UK, it is unlikely that detailed information on Replica is to be released into the public domain for the foreseeable future.

2014 Sighting
In February 2014, the testbed model of Replica was seen being transported around the BAE Warton test facility in Lancashire, England. During the brief 2014 sighting, the aircraft was sporting a new low-visibility coating and minor structural changes and was upside down on a platform being taken into an enclosed hangar. These changes are most likely to be related to the Taranis aircraft, further refining design and aiding in development of new stealth coatings for the Anglo-Franco Future Combat Air System. As of March 2014, the Replica testbed is back on its infamous radar testing plinth at BAE Warton but now in its new paint scheme.

Role: Fifth Generation Strike Fighter
Manufacturer: BAE Systems
Status: Development abandoned
Primary user: Royal Air Force (intended)
Number built: None

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SKB
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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

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Scale comparison. F-22 (top), BAE Replica (middle), F-35 (bottom)

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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

SKB wrote: Replica may have been intended to replace the Panavia Tornado from 2017 onwards. Experience from the program was later rolled into the Joint Strike Fighter program, which essentially replaced Replica.
Not just that, but the £1bn line item reserved against it was used as a downpayment for Tier 1 partner status (plus we transferred the Harrier lift technology, if there was anything left to be transferred as MDD had been building them).
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by cky7 »

Didn't some photos appear a year or so ago showing Bae had got the model back up at their radar return testing pole, anyone ever hear what that was all about?

Funny to think not that long ago the raf planned this as it's tornado replacement (f35 performance wasn't good enough for the role they claimed), 232 typhoons and 138 f35s to replace the harriers and Jaguars. If only..... :?

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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by Ron5 »

This entire thread is utter nonsense.

Replica was a program for Bae to develop, and show, the ability to manufacture airframes with stealth features. Such manufacture requires a different set of technologies, techniques, materials and manufacturing processes.

It wasn't cancelled. It ran through to completion.

The one and only model produced was entirely empty. They merely chose the McD/Bae JSF design because that's what they had to hand to provide a representative outline.

The pylon test was to see how well they had done in terms of low radar observability i.e. they tested the results.

Zero to do with FOAS. Zero to do with Tornado replacement. No billion pound budget.

But yes, key to Bae winning F-35 manufacturing contracts.

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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Ron5 wrote:FOAS [. Zero to do with Tornado replacement. No] billion pound budget.
FOAS had the one bn line item against it. The quote I used ,to fire off with, was badly chosen as it made the Replica/ Tornado replacement connection, not the FOAS (budget)/ (for getting to A )Tornado replacement connection.
- well , it did in a way get to that replacement, so the money for the concept was used to cement the Tier1 Partner position
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by cky7 »

Ron,

I accept my post was badly written. FOAS was to look at tornado replacement and replica was to gain exprience in stealth. Though replica is similar to the jsf proposal I think there are differences in the wing in particular, though it seems clear the designs are related, whilst the main result of replica seems to have been gaining substance to cement Bae's place in the f35 team, surely there's a good chance the shape chosen would bear a fair bit of similarity to the thinking on what the manned strike aircraft element of FOAS would look like? Not guaranteed I know but I think it makes sense (then again things have made sense to me before and been totally wrong! :D )

The pylon tests to which I was referring were the ones about a year ago, years after the replica program had completed and I was just wondering if anyone ever heard why they'd been testing it again. Obviously zero chance of a development program or anything involving that shape. At the time I wondered if it was a test of some new radar tech to see how much better results it gave rather than replica's stealth but that's just a total stab in the dark....

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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

F-35 just got funding for sensors with new frequency bands... now:
- rather than testing just against the f22, f35, b2
- would it not be wonderful to have a differently optimised design to test against? Pinch one from the russkies, the chinese, oh wait ! Weve got one in the cellar... lets hoist it onto the pole again
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by isc75 »

Do you not think that the recent testing of the bae replica could be in relation to Turkish tfx program? A potential replacement for the typhoon perhaps!

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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by cky7 »

ACC,

hmmm, like the thinking and excellent post in the jsf too!

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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by shark bait »

Replacement for Typhoon is already in the works with France.

Don't expect any of this Turkish work to feed into a UK fighter, they're not suddenly going to skip ahead of us a couple of generations. This is them playing catch up.

This will lead to some kind of technology transfer in return for them buying British components for their jet.
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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by Defiance »

shark bait wrote:Replacement for Typhoon is already in the works with France.
Interesting, got any more information on that?

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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by shark bait »

Google 'future combat air system'. Nothing juicy available at the moment, just contracts being signed, but the study is moving on to the next phase, and going to produce 2 demonstrators, one for each country.

It's basically an evolution of Taranis, and the Euro-taranis thing. Officially its not decided if the final version will be manned or unmanned, but it sure looks as though its going to be unmanned.
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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

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shark bait wrote:Google 'future combat air system'. Nothing juicy available at the moment, just contracts being signed, but the study is moving on to the next phase, and going to produce 2 demonstrators, one for each country.

It's basically an evolution of Taranis, and the Euro-taranis thing. Officially its not decided if the final version will be manned or unmanned, but it sure looks as though its going to be unmanned.
That's a much more different class of vehicle though, don't personally see that becoming a Typhoon replacement.

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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

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Defiance wrote:don't personally see that becoming a Typhoon replacement
Until the early 30s the F35s (of which we will have too few for any of them to be "expendable") will have to do the breaching of air defences (as the reach of such has become so great that he alternative tactic of flying around them is less feasible now). The Tiffies will then do the heavy lifting, and should air superiority be challenged, well, they are equipped to deal with that as well
- now again, when was it that Tranche 2s & 3s will come to their OSDs?
- FCAS will do the breaching... when they are ready ( and nobody knows when that will be)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by Defiance »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Until the early 30s the F35s (of which we will have too few for any of them to be "expendable") will have to do the breaching of air defences (as the reach of such has become so great that he alternative tactic of flying around them is less feasible now). The Tiffies will then do the heavy lifting, and should air superiority be challenged, well, they are equipped to deal with that as well
- now again, when was it that Tranche 2s & 3s will come to their OSDs?
- FCAS will do the breaching... when they are ready ( and nobody knows when that will be)
You've not understood what i'm trying to say. Typhoon, despite it's recent activities, is not a bomb truck.

UCAV is niche air-to-ground, F-35 is more multipurpose, what happens when we get challenged in the air? That is the capability which a repurposed existing UCAV design (manned or unmanned) cannot do (you'd effectively need to redesign the entire thing), which is why I said it will not replace Typhoon.

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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by shark bait »

Defiance wrote:That's a much more different class of vehicle though, don't personally see that becoming a Typhoon replacement.
Why is it a different class?
Why not a typhoon replacement?

FCAS will not be a "niche air-to-ground" aircraft.
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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Reading the link that I put onto the strategic proc discussions thread may help?

Here, re: the above , before SB's post, specifically
Defiance wrote:UCAV is niche air-to-ground
- that is what I said
Defiance wrote:F-35 is more multipurpose
- quite right, and I added that we will have too few of them, for them to take on all the assignments they would be capable of
Defiance wrote:what happens when we get challenged in the air
- I said " should air superiority be challenged, well, they [the Tiffies, in the force mix generally, and part of a srike package more specifically] are equipped to deal with that as well"

The hot tip as for what is going to be a replacement for what was
A to google Typhoon OSD and the projected (not even predicted) FCAS ISD, and
B add into the broader picture the drip, drip, drip purchasing approach (that I am all for) to the F-35, and as a JSF, the priority in the early tears for Carrier Strike / CEPP
- as without it there is no Carrier Strike, and so much would have been sacrificed... for almost nothing
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by Defiance »

FCAS will not be a "niche air-to-ground" aircraft.
We'll see.

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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by shark bait »

Taranis is a demonstrator, mostly a platform to test software on. The end product will be nothing like Taranis.

Developing Taranis into a serviceable combat aircraft is going to be so immensely expensive it will have to become a multi role platform because there wont be any cash left for a parallel programme.
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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by Defiance »

Time will tell I suppose.

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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by shark bait »

Yep, it's all a long way off and lots will change.

My way off prediction; lots of unmanned multi role drones, with a big manned bomber controlling them. Think Taranis paired with TSR2.
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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by Defiance »

Have you read the CBSA Trends in Air-to-Air Combat: Implications for Future Air Superiority? It's a good read, similar vein of thinking which goes into that sort of philospohy

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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

shark bait wrote:there wont be any cash left for a parallel programme
One of the premises I start from, came to a different conclusion though
shark bait wrote:drones, with a big manned bomber controlling them
yes, besides what FCAS produces:
- already part of the air superiority studies for the USAF
- and Apaches will get that back-seat driver capability. not to look over the shoulder of the pilot, but to drive paired drones (for CAS, mainly targeting, but also with a "shoot-at-a-target of opportunity)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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