BAE Replica (Future Offensive Air System) (Cancelled Project)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
Ron5
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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by Ron5 »

cky7 wrote:Ron,

I accept my post was badly written. FOAS was to look at tornado replacement and replica was to gain exprience in stealth. Though replica is similar to the jsf proposal I think there are differences in the wing in particular, though it seems clear the designs are related, whilst the main result of replica seems to have been gaining substance to cement Bae's place in the f35 team, surely there's a good chance the shape chosen would bear a fair bit of similarity to the thinking on what the manned strike aircraft element of FOAS would look like? Not guaranteed I know but I think it makes sense (then again things have made sense to me before and been totally wrong! :D )

The pylon tests to which I was referring were the ones about a year ago, years after the replica program had completed and I was just wondering if anyone ever heard why they'd been testing it again. Obviously zero chance of a development program or anything involving that shape. At the time I wondered if it was a test of some new radar tech to see how much better results it gave rather than replica's stealth but that's just a total stab in the dark....
Got it. Thanks.

Another theory is that the more recent pylon testing was to re-calibrate the test facilities i.e. see if they got the same results as previously.

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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by Ron5 »

Hard to imagine FCAS will develop into real system. It seems too soon, any funding will be completely directly with F-35 funding in the UK.

As is their usual MO, the French are merely using the program to extract UK know how for free. Bae was very much against the partnership but was overruled by the european loving dipstick UK politicians.

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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by shark bait »

choices are partner with the French or Americans, cant afford to be too picky.
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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by cky7 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote: - already part of the air superiority studies for the USAF
EDIT - sorry listed this in the other thread but perhaps this is a better place?

Really hope we do as I'd hoped FCAS would be kept as a replacement for the role the tornado has performed, but in a far more capable and expanded mission set. Trying to make it into a typhoon replacement would really worry me. Doing so could end up making it inferior in both roles and too expensive to ever see service. Whilst I like the f35, the us never originally intended it to do air superiority and won't in the future despite what the marketing videos say. It will be able to look after itself yes, but isn't the right design to guarantee the air superiority we've enjoyed for so long. So IMO we really should be looking at a separate design for the typhoon replacement, at least that part of its duty.

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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

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shark bait wrote:choices are partner with the French or Americans, cant afford to be too picky.
Stupid comment. There's a ton of other choices.

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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

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yeah... if we want a shit aircraft, they occupy the first and third most advanced aerospace industries in the west, they should be the only options for us to partner with.
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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by Defiance »

That's largely true, our budgets and our requirements are broadly more aligned with those two but it's more multifaceted, different countries bring different skills to the table.

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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Defiance wrote:it's more multifaceted, different countries bring different skills to the table.
Trump-on-steroids almost got elected in Austria; just wait when that becomes a reality in a bigger country (with some leading skills and technologies within aerospace).
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by Defiance »

ArmChairCivvy wrote: Trump-on-steroids almost got elected in Austria; just wait when that becomes a reality in a bigger country (with some leading skills and technologies within aerospace).
Arguably that's already happened without the skills part in Turkey, nothing fuels a fighter program than paranoia backed up with cash!

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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

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:lol: :lol:
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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Defiance wrote:Arguably that's already happened without the skills part in Turkey [...] paranoia backed up with cash!
I was thinking a bit closer to home... between us and Turkey. And into the future.

But I do not want to fight your general point. Substitute over-blown nationalism (for domestic political reasons) for "paranoia" and you get
- Japan (will do it, and not for overblown nationalism nor paranoia, just because of a bully-like neighbour)
- India (they have trown away a lot of money on "co-developing" with the Russians and are now saying " can we buy one of your older production lines, please", and that is to nations other than Russia)
- Korea; I give them 50/50 at the most. A superb trainer is in a slightly different class.

Russia - they just realised the same "fact" as us here. Combat mass (numbers) count , too, and loadsa Mig35s will go on order - and v few PAK-FAs.

Post-script: Turkey has no cash; instead they are drifting back to the era of endemic Current Account deficits ( when I went there for the first time, no coffee had been imported for two years and I therefore did not get to try Turkish coffee - that I like - in Turkey) and all these grandiose defence procurements, from mainly domestic sources, have been borrowed as a leaf from Putin's book to make the electorate (as long as they still have a vote) to feel good and great, not about their own lives, but the country's standing.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by Ron5 »

shark bait wrote:yeah... if we want a shit aircraft, they occupy the first and third most advanced aerospace industries in the west, they should be the only options for us to partner with.
UK aerospace is more than capable of developing the system on its own. Rather insulting of you to believe otherwise.

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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by shark bait »

oh yes industry is fully capable, it's the treasury that isn't.
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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by Defiance »

shark bait wrote: it's the treasury that isn't.
^^ this

UK industry could develop a fighter internally I have no doubt but the UK customer wouldn't buy enough to get costs down to a reasonable level (as no doubt specs would flip-flop and creep northwards and they'd be surprised the costs go up).

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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

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shark bait wrote:oh yes industry is fully capable, it's the treasury that isn't.
You've just contradicted yourself.

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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by shark bait »

no, I am consistant, the skills within the UK's very strong aerospace sector is capable of developing a world class aircraft, as demonstrated in the past. The problem is funding the development, and funding the support of a bespoke aircraft would be challenging.

To alleviate that challenge a partner nation is desireable. Personally I would only condiser the Americans or French. Japan is a wild card, capable, and well funded, but little precidence for cooperation.
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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by Ron5 »

Well apart from the fact that you identified France and the USA as the only 2 countries with sufficient aerospace skills and now you're saying anyone with money would do. No contradiction there (eyes roll).

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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by shark bait »

You just read what you want to see so you can belittle people. Quite clearly stated again "Americans or French".
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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by SKB »

BAE Replica related news and/or discussion only please. ;)

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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by downsizer »

SKB wrote:BAE Replica related news and/or discussion only please. ;)
I missed your promotion to mod. Congrats ;-)

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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by shark bait »

getting difficult to have a discussion....... if only there was a discussion forum somewhere.
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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by downsizer »

Crazy. Must stop having meandering conversations in real life. :lol:

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Or some people have never been down to the pub... in real life?

[This is by no means passive-aggressive, just an observation .]

BAE replica cannot be mutated further than this, so I will exit the conversation... hopefully can find some relevant conversation thread.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: BAE Replica (Cancelled Project)

Post by Ron5 »

Kinda dumb for me & SB to get so personal tho. Sorry.

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