UK Defence Forum

News, History, Discussions and Debates on UK Defence.

Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
Ron5
Senior Member
Posts: 4233
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
Location: United States of America

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Ron5 » 31 May 2020, 16:19

seaspear wrote:There is an argument against acquiring the f35 for the R.A.F if the Tempest is to be later bought in twenty years


There is?

Unless Tempest is carrier capable, I'd say such an argument & the guy making it, is full of it.

dmereifield
Senior Member
Posts: 2198
Joined: 03 Aug 2016, 20:29
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby dmereifield » 31 May 2020, 16:28

Ron5 wrote:
dmereifield wrote:As for the first point, is Typhoon cheaper than an F35A? Aren't they coming in at something silly like $80million?


Typhoon is more like 200 million UK pounds fly away.


It can't be that much, surely?

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 1460
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby SW1 » 31 May 2020, 16:30

dmereifield wrote:
Ron5 wrote:
dmereifield wrote:As for the first point, is Typhoon cheaper than an F35A? Aren't they coming in at something silly like $80million?


Typhoon is more like 200 million UK pounds fly away.


It can't be that much, surely?


It isn’t nor is the f35 $80m.

dmereifield
Senior Member
Posts: 2198
Joined: 03 Aug 2016, 20:29
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby dmereifield » 31 May 2020, 19:46

SW1 wrote:
dmereifield wrote:
Ron5 wrote:
dmereifield wrote:As for the first point, is Typhoon cheaper than an F35A? Aren't they coming in at something silly like $80million?


Typhoon is more like 200 million UK pounds fly away.


It can't be that much, surely?


It isn’t nor is the f35 $80m.


Do you have the values for both/either, please?

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 1460
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby SW1 » 31 May 2020, 21:03

dmereifield wrote:
SW1 wrote:
dmereifield wrote:
Ron5 wrote:
dmereifield wrote:As for the first point, is Typhoon cheaper than an F35A? Aren't they coming in at something silly like $80million?


Typhoon is more like 200 million UK pounds fly away.


It can't be that much, surely?


It isn’t nor is the f35 $80m.


Do you have the values for both/either, please?


Well I know there’s lots of interest in “flyaway” costs but there usually for the marketing brochures as this is generally the smallest cost you will pay. Training, operating, Startup, thru life support is where the real costs with operating any aircraft are. Regardless of whatever is quoted the only real metric for the UK, is what the UK set aside to bring the a/c into service. NAO provide numbers on this last time I looked typhoon for design, manufacture and entry into service of 160 a/c was about £17.5b with a further £13b estimated to take the whole fleet thru to 2030s. For f35 the design manufacture and entry into service will cost uk about £9b pounds.

Last time I saw a mention of typhoon “flyaway” was around £60m. But as I mention it’s an irrelevant number.

One also has to remember what is encompassed with tempest it is not just about a manned aircraft it’s about a system. That involves R&D in testing, engine tech, in radars, in sensors in complex weapons and other things beside. If you simply say we’re buying f35 most of that stops its pointless to keep investing in tech that will never make it onto an aircraft as the US decides when and if something is integrated.

Timmymagic
Senior Member
Posts: 1667
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 31 May 2020, 21:23

Ron5 wrote:Typhoon is more like 200 million UK pounds fly away.


The highest figure I've seen for Typhoon was £165m per copy. That included the UK's share of the development costs. Never seen a price as high as £200m. There's no doubt its more expensive in cash terms than F-35A, but its where that money is spent that really matters. I think we're all clear now that the '15%' in the UK is a load of old tosh for F-35, but Typhoon's 35-40% in the UK most definitely isn't. And that matters.

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 1460
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby SW1 » 31 May 2020, 21:29

Timmymagic wrote:
Ron5 wrote:Typhoon is more like 200 million UK pounds fly away.


The highest figure I've seen for Typhoon was £165m per copy. That included the UK's share of the development costs. Never seen a price as high as £200m. There's no doubt its more expensive in cash terms than F-35A, but its where that money is spent that really matters. I think we're all clear now that the '15%' in the UK is a load of old tosh for F-35, but Typhoon's 35-40% in the UK most definitely isn't. And that matters.


I’ve seen the £200m figure bandy about before usually associated with the clowns in the Phoenix think tank it’s there pet program to hate.

Timmymagic
Senior Member
Posts: 1667
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 31 May 2020, 22:12

SW1 wrote:I’ve seen the £200m figure bandy about before usually associated with the clowns in the Phoenix think tank it’s there pet program to hate.


The £165m I saw was a pretty belt and braces figure as well, including costs through EAP and the efforts in the early 80's.

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 12613
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 01 Jun 2020, 09:09

SW1 wrote: NAO provide numbers on this last time I looked typhoon for design, manufacture and entry into service of 160 a/c was about £17.5b with a further £13b estimated to take the whole fleet thru to 2030s. For f35 the design manufacture and entry into service will cost uk about £9b pounds.

Good to bring in the figures compiled by folks who actually can be hauled in front of some 'body' to explain how they got there.

I would work with a rule of ten: the figures NAO have been given are the figures submitted into the EP
- the good news: it includes everything required for the project to declare ISD (and then beyond, out to ten years, including half a bn for upgrading Marham)
- the bad news: however hard the Parliament (& its committees) have pressed, the MoD has not stated how many a/c we will end up with, for that money. Nor does it cover 'unplanned' upgrades and as it is a JSF we have heard noises from the Joint Command (now under a new name) that a bn would be required, to make the fleet work 'as planned' :o
So, after all the plusses and minuses, it is 10 bn and 10 yrs

Whereas for Typhoon it is 30 for 30 (I would be counting not from OCU but the first operational squadron in 2006)... we even know the number of aircraft (160, but now much less, so again such long horizon costs should be related, not to the cumulative total, but the average 'balance' available. Therefore not leaping full-in but rather drip feeding, as we are, might be a very good cost containment policy: get the finished product, not half-baked initial versions )

Timmymagic
Senior Member
Posts: 1667
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 01 Jun 2020, 09:24

ArmChairCivvy wrote:- the bad news: however hard the Parliament (& its committees) have pressed, the MoD has not stated how many a/c we will end up with, for that money.


There is only one reason that a government department withholds data on such a grand scale....it means the situation is a disaster, with serious questions to be asked of the department question. You can guarantee it iif they had a good tale to share they would be shouting it out..

Timmymagic
Senior Member
Posts: 1667
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 01 Jun 2020, 13:30

Caribbean wrote:Also the 24 for Spain, as they may be diverted off the production line to fill the Egyptian order (maybe the same thing could be said about the German order......).


The Italian's have potentially landed this one, so they will want the assembly work in Italy. The only switcheroo so far on Typhoon production was when the UK gave the Saudi's its remaining 72 from the RAF's committed order slots, neatly sidestepping the UK buying far less than originally pledged. In that regard we're almost as bad as the Germans, although at least we got another country to take our allocation rather than just cancelling.

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 12613
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 01 Jun 2020, 14:18

Timmymagic wrote:switcheroo so far on Typhoon production was when the UK gave the Saudi's its remaining 72 from the RAF's committed order slots, neatly sidestepping the UK buying far less than originally pledged. In that regard we're almost as bad as the Germans, although at least we got another country to take our allocation

That is now the official mechanism with A-400M. Except that towards the member semi-equity loan, for it to become payable (back), sales are counted without these sorts of 'deliveries'.

Ron5
Senior Member
Posts: 4233
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
Location: United States of America

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Ron5 » 01 Jun 2020, 16:21

SW1 wrote:
dmereifield wrote:
SW1 wrote:
dmereifield wrote:
Ron5 wrote:
dmereifield wrote:As for the first point, is Typhoon cheaper than an F35A? Aren't they coming in at something silly like $80million?


Typhoon is more like 200 million UK pounds fly away.


It can't be that much, surely?


It isn’t nor is the f35 $80m.


Do you have the values for both/either, please?


Well I know there’s lots of interest in “flyaway” costs but there usually for the marketing brochures as this is generally the smallest cost you will pay. Training, operating, Startup, thru life support is where the real costs with operating any aircraft are. Regardless of whatever is quoted the only real metric for the UK, is what the UK set aside to bring the a/c into service. NAO provide numbers on this last time I looked typhoon for design, manufacture and entry into service of 160 a/c was about £17.5b with a further £13b estimated to take the whole fleet thru to 2030s. For f35 the design manufacture and entry into service will cost uk about £9b pounds.

Last time I saw a mention of typhoon “flyaway” was around £60m. But as I mention it’s an irrelevant number.

One also has to remember what is encompassed with tempest it is not just about a manned aircraft it’s about a system. That involves R&D in testing, engine tech, in radars, in sensors in complex weapons and other things beside. If you simply say we’re buying f35 most of that stops its pointless to keep investing in tech that will never make it onto an aircraft as the US decides when and if something is integrated.


What a bunch of twaddle.

Flyaway is extremely relevant,. If the RAF want to buy x Typhoons in 20221, they will need x times flyaway pounds in the kitty. What was spent decades ago in R&D means nothing.

I did make up the 200 million to get a reaction from the Typhoon fans around here. It's actually well over 100 million going by the prices Eurofighter is quoting to prospective buyers. It's at least double F-35. The total acquisition bill of course, depends hugely on whether you are adding to existing inventory or buying a brand new type.

By the way the 60 million, which was actually 65 million, was quoted a long, long, time ago in NAO reports as UPC. Much water has passed since then.

Ron5
Senior Member
Posts: 4233
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
Location: United States of America

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Ron5 » 01 Jun 2020, 16:23

Timmymagic wrote:
ArmChairCivvy wrote:- the bad news: however hard the Parliament (& its committees) have pressed, the MoD has not stated how many a/c we will end up with, for that money.


There is only one reason that a government department withholds data on such a grand scale....it means the situation is a disaster, with serious questions to be asked of the department question. You can guarantee it iif they had a good tale to share they would be shouting it out..


Nope. The UK government withholds such data as a matter of routine. Can't have taxpayers knowing exactly where their money will or was spent.

Ron5
Senior Member
Posts: 4233
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
Location: United States of America

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Ron5 » 01 Jun 2020, 16:27

Timmymagic wrote:I think we're all clear now that the '15%' in the UK is a load of old tosh for F-35


O really? You can back up that claim no doubt.

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 12613
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 01 Jun 2020, 16:31

Ron5 wrote:It's actually well over 100 million going by the prices Eurofighter is quoting to prospective buyers. It's at least double F-35.
Funny that, then that both are still in the Finnish fighter competition for 64 a/c - complete with support systems - in which the parameters have been from start e 7 to 10[must not exceed] bn
- and though everything is secret - sorry, commercially confidential - the press has (well, who else) printed rumours that the F-35 support costs have been 'bent' or at least there has been a try to achieve such a result, so that the plane could stay in the competition

Ron5
Senior Member
Posts: 4233
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
Location: United States of America

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Ron5 » 01 Jun 2020, 18:58

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Ron5 wrote:It's actually well over 100 million going by the prices Eurofighter is quoting to prospective buyers. It's at least double F-35.
Funny that, then that both are still in the Finnish fighter competition for 64 a/c - complete with support systems - in which the parameters have been from start e 7 to 10[must not exceed] bn
- and though everything is secret - sorry, commercially confidential - the press has (well, who else) printed rumours that the F-35 support costs have been 'bent' or at least there has been a try to achieve such a result, so that the plane could stay in the competition


I'm talking flyaway, you are talking about something else.

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 12613
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 01 Jun 2020, 21:03

Ron5 wrote:something else.

Relevance.
Like the birds flying away with engines, not without.

Ron5
Senior Member
Posts: 4233
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
Location: United States of America

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Ron5 » 01 Jun 2020, 21:23

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Ron5 wrote:something else.

Relevance.
Like the birds flying away with engines, not without.


Nope. Support costs for a long established type like the Typhoon are quite different that those of a new type like the F-35. And the subect was aircraft purchase price for the RAF in case you can't remember.

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 12613
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 01 Jun 2020, 21:58

:lol:
Ron5 wrote:I did make up the 200 million to get a reaction from the Typhoon fans around here. It's actually well over 100 million going by the prices Eurofighter is quoting to prospective buyers. It's at least double F-35.

- except that you have to buy two ;) for each plane available: "Fewer than half of the Air Force F-35s were deemed mission-ready in 2018, according to Air Force Times."

Today's military often says that they are buying capability, not hardware. Per unit of capability... not looking that good?
- on the F-35 thread we can discuss support costs, a little taster from Bloomberg when they looked into it last year, I guess spurred on by all the 'nasties' that surfaced around the Block4 costs

Research and procurement increases by $22 billion: cost office
Six decades of operations and support grows by $73 billion

Ron5
Senior Member
Posts: 4233
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
Location: United States of America

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Ron5 » 02 Jun 2020, 05:18

ArmChairCivvy wrote::lol:
Ron5 wrote:I did make up the 200 million to get a reaction from the Typhoon fans around here. It's actually well over 100 million going by the prices Eurofighter is quoting to prospective buyers. It's at least double F-35.

- except that you have to buy two ;) for each plane available: "Fewer than half of the Air Force F-35s were deemed mission-ready in 2018, according to Air Force Times."

Today's military often says that they are buying capability, not hardware. Per unit of capability... not looking that good?
- on the F-35 thread we can discuss support costs, a little taster from Bloomberg when they looked into it last year, I guess spurred on by all the 'nasties' that surfaced around the Block4 costs

Research and procurement increases by $22 billion: cost office
Six decades of operations and support grows by $73 billion


A severe case of what-about-iss instead of talking to the point.

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 12613
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 02 Jun 2020, 09:51

Ron5 wrote:A severe case of what-about-iss instead of talking to the point.


F-35 points belong to that thread, not in Brit-bashing on some other thread. I put something there, for you to chew on, as here we have had several responses already which are like the above... and avoiding the point.

Tinman
Member
Posts: 249
Joined: 03 May 2015, 17:59
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Tinman » 02 Jun 2020, 15:01

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Ron5 wrote:A severe case of what-about-iss instead of talking to the point.


F-35 points belong to that thread, not in Brit-bashing on some other thread. I put something there, for you to chew on, as here we have had several responses already which are like the above... and avoiding the point.


Ron5 is a troll, he is the American version of Photoex over on arrse, funny how they get the same responses.

He has also been seen trolling on the UK Defence journal, but both of them are scared of posting on PPrUnne.

Ron5
Senior Member
Posts: 4233
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
Location: United States of America

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Ron5 » 02 Jun 2020, 15:53

I went over to pprune and was surprised my old login still worked. It said the last time I was there was February 2016.

The first page I looked at about the F-35 contained this gem:

"Probably the most iconic RAF Sqn now commanded by an RN officer, an example of the extraordinary good faith with which the RAF has approached this project" from an ex-RAF pilot.

I laughed so hard I couldn't continue. Presumably the "good faith" was the innumerable attempts the RAF made to cancel the carriers.

I left. Such lack of self-awareness shouldn't be disturbed :D

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 12613
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 02 Jun 2020, 18:23

Tinman wrote:Ron5 is a troll, he is the American version of Photoex over on arrse, funny how they get the same responses.


It is good fun keeping them running on their hamster wheel, though 8-) .

Actually, thinking about it, it is very much akin to the whack-the-mole game... more interactive :wave: .


Return to “Royal Air Force”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests