UK Defence Forum

Story here

https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/mi ... er,RGoPe1f

33 aircraft maintains 5000 jobs in Manching.

Out with the old, in with the new(ish)


IX Sqn are transitioning from their Tornado GR4s to Typhoon FGR4s. These will be Tranche 1, and IX is expected to provide QRA and adversarial combat training.

Qwerty wrote:Story here

https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/mi ... er,RGoPe1f

33 aircraft maintains 5000 jobs in Manching.

a nice round price tag for the new:
"Insider schätzen den Wert eines neuen Eurofighters auf rund 100 Millionen Euro. "

-Eddie- wrote:IX is expected to provide QRA and adversarial combat training.

while we burn the hours off our old ones (and save them on the newer tranches):

The same German source sets the Tornado replacement at 90 pieces
- the current Tornado numbers are below 80

ArmChairCivvy wrote:The same German source sets the Tornado replacement at 90 pieces
- the current Tornado numbers are below 80

Anything approaching those numbers would be a boon to the UK aerospace sector if they're all Eurofighters

dmereifield wrote:

ArmChairCivvy wrote:The same German source sets the Tornado replacement at 90 pieces
- the current Tornado numbers are below 80

Anything approaching those numbers would be a boon to the UK aerospace sector if they're all Eurofighters

Agreed. Though maintaining the 37.5% Brit content in the case where all production is rolling off the German line might be a challenge?

In this context it is worth remembering that Airbus is promoting the idea of making next-gen EW planes from biz/ passenger jets
- I am not sure that will 'fly'
- and hence, let's not discount the SH/ Growler in the current competition

dmereifield wrote:Good, hopefully we'll see a second German order soon enough to replace the Tornados. Still hoping we might see that elusive second Saudi order at some point too

Not a chance. That's dead as a Dodo due to Germany's ban on arms exports to Saudi Arabia. Even if Germany withdraws the ban the damage is done and the Saudi's will right;y feel that they can no longer trust Germany in this area. I suspect that one consideration when Germany decided to order additional Typhoon's to replace their T1's was in to placate/compensate the other members of the consortium for killing the Saudi order.

Pseudo wrote:dead as a Dodo due to Germany's ban on arms exports to Saudi Arabia.

... and there have been words on that same topic, going forward, within the Franco-German FCAS project (the French wanting assurances).

Pseudo wrote:

dmereifield wrote:Good, hopefully we'll see a second German order soon enough to replace the Tornados. Still hoping we might see that elusive second Saudi order at some point too

Not a chance. That's dead as a Dodo due to Germany's ban on arms exports to Saudi Arabia. Even if Germany withdraws the ban the damage is done and the Saudi's will right;y feel that they can no longer trust Germany in this area. I suspect that one consideration when Germany decided to order additional Typhoon's to replace their T1's was in to placate/compensate the other members of the consortium for killing the Saudi order.

Good point

Can't help but feel their linking with France brought a little push to kill off the UK's relationship and export advantages. They knew they wouldn't suffer. 33 Typhoons made for Germany by Germany is worth more to them than 48 Typhoons made by the UK for Saudi; and in doing so they also get to push more people toward giving France (and thus Germany for FCAS) money.

With friends like these...

Will the UK benefit from the German order. Some bits must be made here.

bobp wrote:Will the UK benefit from the German order. Some bits must be made here.

They will, but not nearly as much as the Saudi one.

Also bear in mind more Saudi Typhoons = More UK munitions being told.

More German Typhoons = ...well okay the Germans are unlikely to buy more munitions, even their own, but it further denies UK sales.

Can't help but feel thats the real intent here, and that "morality" has nothing to do with it.

RetroSicotte wrote:Can't help but feel their linking with France brought a little push to kill off the UK's relationship and export advantages. They knew they wouldn't suffer. 33 Typhoons made for Germany by Germany is worth more to them than 48 Typhoons made by the UK for Saudi; and in doing so they also get to push more people toward giving France (and thus Germany for FCAS) money.

With friends like these...

Seeing as they are so civic minded, perhaps we should withhold delivery of cockpit and rear fuselage sections, until they either drop Nord Stream 2 or their desperate attempts to profiteer from the Iranian regime? Don't think they would want to start with tooling for a production run of 33 airframes worth.

With the UK and Italy controlling the majority of Eurofighter GmbH (54% vs 46%) this can get as nasty as the Germans wish. Neither country can afford to lose this level of business. Could we perhaps order another batch of Tranche 3s, whilst selling our Tranche 2s to the Saudis? They are not lacking ground attack capability these days. Keep them going and hooked on our product for another decade or so...

Whether this is France pulling the strings, Airbus shareholders are not likely to be amused by the loss of billions of Euros in defence sales.

I wish our Gallic cousins 'bon chance' with their FCAS alliance. They will really need it.....

Jensy

Jensy wrote: Could we perhaps order another batch of Tranche 3s, whilst selling our Tranche 2s to the Saudis?

Germany is withholding Meteor components, not Typhoon components. Starving Saudis of the munition they want is whats costing the UK, and the Saudis want Tranche 3s (likely AESA ones).

RetroSicotte wrote:

Jensy wrote: Could we perhaps order another batch of Tranche 3s, whilst selling our Tranche 2s to the Saudis?

Germany is withholding Meteor components, not Typhoon components. Starving Saudis of the munition they want is whats costing the UK, and the Saudis want Tranche 3s (likely AESA ones).

From what I read in the FT, I believed it was both:

https://www.ft.com/content/b14d77e2-345 ... 459962a812

Mr Hunt said it was essential for Germany to exclude immediately big European defence projects such as the Eurofighter and Tornado from the anti-Saudi measure, or Berlin would risk a loss of faith in its credibility as a partner.He said the export ban had also affected the supply of Meteor long-range air-to-air missiles, not only to Saudi Arabia but also to Germany’s European partners.

Obviously its spare parts for the RSAF Tornado fleet, presumably also for Typhoon?

Maybe naive but I don't see this ending well for Germany or their defence sector, at least in the mid-term onwards.

Jensy

Jensy wrote:From what I read in the FT, I believed it was both:

https://www.ft.com/content/b14d77e2-345 ... 459962a812

Fair dos, hadn't seen that.

Uk gov should tell Germany if they dont lift any export bans relating to Typhoon they can stick the Boxer contract up their bollocks.

Would these new Typhoons fall outside the original production contract between the four partners? Maybe the supply of components could be difficult when these airframes are planed to be built increase costs and so on. Things do get lost in the post.

Der Spiegel article on the embargo.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschla ... 53997.html

It's hard to see how the Germans can get around their domestic legislation.

It's also hard not to see how the other consortium partners won't be able to absolutely rinse the German industrial partners in court for failing to meet their obligations. I can absolutely guarantee that within the, no doubt, colossal Eurofighter consortium agreements that there are obligations on each partner which they have pledged to uphold. This may come to bite them in the backside, not rapidly though as cases will tend to rumble through the courts for up to a decade. The real damage will also be the long term fallout, both to the Germans credibility as industrial partners on military systems and on Middle East buyers purchasing habits for arms.

It's also rather difficult for the French in the FCAS programme. Can they actually strike a deal with the Germans that also is credible to foreign buyers? Will anyone take the guarantees seriously.

So it is fine to export Typhoon to Saudi Arabia when they are only inflicting misery on their own population but as soon as they have a go at bunch or terrorists in another with very unfortunate repercussions for the civilian population, they Germans pull the plug. Yet they have also sold hundreds of Leopard 2s to Turkey whose record on civil rights is appalling, though I believe they have now changes their policy regarding Turkey.

I do not think the German Government should be worried about legal action by its international partners, its own Defence Industry will fill that role as it is already doing.

Lord Jim wrote:I do not think the German Government should be worried about legal action by its international partners, its own Defence Industry will fill that role as it is already doing.

An order for 33 Typhoon from the Luftwaffe and a promise of further orders to replace Tornado after they've removed the only credible competitor from the competition is more than enough compensation to the German defence industry. Whilst the UK benefits from their workshare its not going to keep our production line open. I have a sneaking suspicion that the Typhoon partners agreement will not allow arbitrary actions like Germany's from affecting the other partners....if it does they are going to get absolutely rinsed in court. But the damage done will be considerable.

Timmymagic wrote:

Lord Jim wrote:I do not think the German Government should be worried about legal action by its international partners, its own Defence Industry will fill that role as it is already doing.

An order for 33 Typhoon from the Luftwaffe and a promise of further orders to replace Tornado after they've removed the only credible competitor from the competition is more than enough compensation to the German defence industry. Whilst the UK benefits from their workshare its not going to keep our production line open. I have a sneaking suspicion that the Typhoon partners agreement will not allow arbitrary actions like Germany's from affecting the other partners....if it does they are going to get absolutely rinsed in court. But the damage done will be considerable.

What if, say UK Gov refuses export of British produced parts for new German Typhoons as response?

Perhaps another question would be what it would take to bring all of the present German Eurofighters up to operational readiness and why this has not been addressed , you could be forgiven to believe that the emphasis is on building the aircraft and promoting jobs than having a feasible air force

abc123 wrote:What if, say UK Gov refuses export of British produced parts for new German Typhoons as response?

What would prevent Germany from retaliating and blocking the export of German produced spare parts for RAF Typhoons?

I also expect that the German government would sue the crap out of the British government.

Basically, escalating things would end badly for everyone involved.