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Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby shark bait » 07 Jan 2019, 08:02

Not quite all that can be done; there is a developed Aerodynamic Modification Kit ready to be added, and an upgrade path planned for EJ200. Further more a new cockpit wouldn't go amiss, plus there is the 'payload bay' currently occupied by the gun, that could be repurposed ala Growler.

Still plenty of life left if wanted bad enough. I guess the RAF will keep an eye on how the USAF get on with their 'old is new' plans.
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 07 Jan 2019, 18:41

Whilst the latest F-16 is a capable platform, the Typhoon even without AESA still outperforms it in nearly every if not all categories and the latter is still growing.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 10 Jan 2019, 11:43

Had to happen before March.


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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 10 Jan 2019, 11:46

As others on the thread pointed out it only referred to Tranche 3 Typhoon. No mention of Tranche 2, which could be a good thing or a bad thing (more than likely bad..)


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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 10 Jan 2019, 11:47

Here's the written answer in full...no mention of 'initially'....

Q8. Further information on the timetable for the E-Scan radar project. (Q143)
The E-Scan radar project is in the assessment phase and NETMA continues to progress technical and commercial negotiations with Eurofighter.
Whilst these discussions are still ongoing, and the timescales are therefore subject to change, we anticipate MOD Main Gate investment approval in the latter half of 2019. We expect that the new radar will be embodied on 40 Tranche 3 Typhoons.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby RetroSicotte » 10 Jan 2019, 12:56

Less than a third of the fleet, absolutely pathetic effort.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 10 Jan 2019, 13:06

Let's hold the horses?

There are three versions of the new radar; are we going in with a phased, errr phase-in?

Could be good news: the rest will get "a better one"?

Also, the previous Captor is every bit as good as it should be... exc. for low probability of intercept, while using it
-- if you are flying in an air-defence role, so what: more Meteors! to outmatch the other side

But, if you are flying in a penetrating mode/ that sort of mission... with the JSFs (if they don't happen to be on the carriers... oceans apart :lol: ) or without them/ their help; then that can be everything
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby RetroSicotte » 10 Jan 2019, 16:08

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Also, the previous Captor is every bit as good as it should be...

It was as good as could be...on its induction.

Right now it's about whats needed, provided you're not going up against someone with top end spectrum stuff.

But the idea that it's on par with modern AESA radars still to be introduced out to 2040 just holds no water. If the remainder of the fleet are not upgraded, then that is an enormous issue. There were already notes that the Captor-M was struggling with even the Gripen-C and Rafale F2 electronic protections, not to mention its well known issues trying to find the F-22 at anything outside WVR to short-medium range. And those versions are already a decade old themselves and since replaced or on the way to replacement.

You can't rest on laurels. Because it said "best" when it came out means nothing 10+ years later, let alone out past 2030. Captor-E should be a mandatory upgrade for anything that isn't a Tranche 1 (which cannot actually fit it). Anything less should be considered as the severe cut that it is, rather than trying to mitigate and "argue for".

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 10 Jan 2019, 16:23

RetroSicotte wrote: be introduced out to 2040 just holds no water

ArmChairCivvy wrote:There are three versions of the new radar; are we going in with a phased, errr phase-in?

Could be good news: the rest will get "a better one"?


RetroSicotte wrote:You can't rest on laurel
... I agree with that punchline

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby RetroSicotte » 10 Jan 2019, 16:26

When they announce it, sure.

But the way it sounds, they just want to do their usual thing. Checkbox military.

Have an AESA on Typhoon so we can soundbite that we've given it one regardless of only a small portion of the fleet getting it - Check!

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 10 Jan 2019, 16:41

RetroSicotte wrote:When they announce it, sure.

But the way it sounds, they just want to do their usual thing.


We share the frustration.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby RetroSicotte » 10 Jan 2019, 16:53

ArmChairCivvy wrote:We share the frustration.

And the hope.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby topman » 10 Jan 2019, 18:38

It was always going to be only a certain number in the fleet. It's been standard for many upgrades across multiple fleets. Anything else isn't unaffordable under current budgets.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby SW1 » 10 Jan 2019, 18:42

It’s all a question of funding and what happens when. E-Scan Radar in typhoon delivers end of this year to gulf countries, product sets already underway.

Like with all our fleets if you rob support and sustainment to pay for shinny new this is what happens. We’ve sen this playoutnwith awacs and apaches. Will all our f35s keep pace with the block upgrades or with it be only some it’s a recurring theme with us.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 10 Jan 2019, 18:56

SW1 wrote:E-Scan Radar in typhoon delivers end of this year to gulf countries, product sets already underway.


From Italy, to Kuwait... the radar sets might be "Scottish" :) ?

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby SW1 » 10 Jan 2019, 19:22

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
SW1 wrote:E-Scan Radar in typhoon delivers end of this year to gulf countries, product sets already underway.


From Italy, to Kuwait... the radar sets might be "Scottish" :) ?

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
SW1 wrote:E-Scan Radar in typhoon delivers end of this year to gulf countries, product sets already underway.


From Italy, to Kuwait... the radar sets might be "Scottish" :) ?


They are indeed from hensoldt to Edinburgh witha touch of Spanish flair!

The RAF maybe looking for something similar but different and may well have German interest for future buys.
Bae are looking at addition cost of upgrading earlier variants to e-scan but it will ultimately be a budget driven decision.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 10 Jan 2019, 19:59

SW1 wrote:Edinburgh witha touch of Spanish flair!


From the personal perspective (Spanish wife; son with a degree from the Edinburgh Uni) that sounds like a perfect product/ solution :)

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ~UNiOnJaCk~ » 11 Jan 2019, 18:51

BriteCloud to be integrated onto Typhoon in RAF service: https://www.janes.com/article/85668/bri ... ntegration

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby RetroSicotte » 12 Jan 2019, 02:21

Excellent to see confirmation.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 12 Jan 2019, 05:02

RetroSicotte wrote:Excellent to see confirmation.

I think you posted about it a year ago? A rumour/ leak at that stage

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby abc123 » 12 Jan 2019, 11:56

About Spear 3, are they integrated on F-35B? Because they are on that picture, in front of the F-35B. Same thing with Meteor, not integrated, because they will use AIM-120D.
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 15 Jan 2019, 11:48

abc123 wrote:About Spear 3, are they integrated on F-35B? Because they are on that picture, in front of the F-35B. Same thing with Meteor, not integrated, because they will use AIM-120D.


Not yet. They will be in block 4. But...until then UK F-35B will only be external cannon (EDIT - As per Gabi none have been procured yet, looks like they will be left until Block 4 if at all..), legacy Asraam (NOT Asraam CSP), Amraam C-5 and D and Paveway IV.

I can't find out if the Amraam D purchase is in place of the Amraam C-5 re-life which needs to happen if they are to stay in service past 2020ish. If it is....then we have issues as it means we have a grand total of 120 medium/long range missiles across our entire fast jet fleet (plus whatever Meteor are built in the next few years, but they're only for T3 Typhoon, 260 have been mentioned as the total)....Personally, I'd re-life the C-5's and buy the D's and minimise the Meteor buy for the next few years. Why? Leave the C-5's with Tranche 1 & 2 Typhoons, Meteor to Tranche 3 Typhoon and all of the Amraam D to F-35B. Ramp the buy of Meteor up when the GaN AESA seeker from the JNAAM collaboration is ready (which could tie in with F-35B integration) then go all in on Meteor, moving the Amraam D over to the Tranche 2 Typhoons, whilst the C-5's retire with Tranche 1 Typhoon.

In reality UK F-35B won't be 'fully' operational until c2025/26 (which is also the timescale for full CEPP) when it has Meteor, Asraam CSP and SPEAR integrated and deployed and possibly the gun pod (in addition to PWIV and Amraam D). The air to air weapons for Typhoon at present are the best in the world (Typhoon T3 right now) or will be for F-35B when integration and deployment takes place. But our air to ground munitions are lacking, particularly in variety. At present the RAF will field Brimstone 2, SPEAR, Storm Shadow, EPWIII and Paveway IV (admittedly in a couple of models inc. penetrator and hopefully moving target with Brimstone seeker, although that one has gone quiet...) and thats it, and not all available from all platforms. Which when you have only 2 fast jet types is ludicrous. We're clearly missing some capabilities, off the top of my head...with suggestions..

- A glide kit for Paveway IV to extend range - MBDA does the Diamondback wing kit which could be adapted, we also need to adapt this to allow Stingray carriage and operation from P-8.
- A cheap small GPS guided glide bomb a la JDAM/SDB1 - MBDA is developing the SmartGlider family. These are essentially SBD1 competitors, with the same shape as SPEAR. SmartGlider Light fits the bill. Integration should be easy as a result with F-35B and Typhoon. Smaller warheads than PWIV, a lot cheaper than SPEAR. Same launcher and footprint though.
- Cheap, Heavier than 500lb munition - With the retirement of PWII and EPWIII being rather more expensive, a cheap 1,000 or 2,000lb munition is needed. The MBDA Smartglider family also has a 1,300kg Heavy variant. Sometimes more bang is necessary. Not sure of the form factor on this though. Could be UK made and will have longer range than EPWIII.
- Anti Radiation Missile - I'm conflicted on this as SPEAR could fulfil the role for DEAD with F-35B (and with Typhoon if its EW fitout gets improved). The only option at present is the AARGM which is hugely expensive. But...MBDA showed a concept of a CAMM with Brimstone seeker, which would be a brilliant solution, high speed, easily integrated with Typhoon and F-35B. Would also make an easy Brimstone like capability for F-35B (with admittedly only 2 carried on the outer pylon) let alone the implications for the Army and Navy, there is also an E/O variant...
- Anti-Ship/Medium/Heavy Cruise missile - Until (or if) FCASW arrives the only practical solution for this is JSM. There is a smart move the UK could make on this that would address the obsolescence of Harpoon 1C on surface ships, plus arm Typhoon, P-8 and F-35, whilst also providing a sub-surface ASM for SSN's and ASM for T31 after 2030 but I doubt we'll make it.
- Novel stores - The F-35 and Typhoon need a standard weapon shape for novel stores (think the E-bomb or graphite filament bombs). The SmartGlider Heavy form if adopted as the 'heavy' bomb should be adapted as a 'container' for other stores. The UK has historically, and to date, done a lot of research on these but has no method of delivery. A standard, decent sized, GPS guided gliding container would allow lots of different payloads to be incorporated/developed.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 15 Jan 2019, 12:42

Good post, fits here as Typhoon will be the mainstay for many years to come

Timmymagic wrote: Leave the C-5's with Tranche 1 & 2 Typhoons, Meteor to Tranche 3 Typhoon and all of the Amraam D to F-35B. Ramp the buy of Meteor up when the GaN AESA seeker from the JNAAM collaboration is ready [...] then go all in on Meteor, moving the Amraam D over to the Tranche 2 Typhoons, whilst the C-5's retire with Tranche 1 Typhoon.

In reality UK F-35B won't be 'fully' operational until c2025/26 (which is also the timescale for full CEPP)

I agree as the timescales are pretty much set in stone, so economically that would be the best way forward
- just that for half a decade any OpFor, by just knowing what platforms are in the air, would be able to tell their capabilities and thereby plan their 'counter'
Timmymagic wrote: our air to ground munitions are lacking
Quite. We are more dependent on Apaches than we think
- their survivability should get a hard look, and then a proportionate investment in 'unmanned wingmen' would be called for - while we slowly get "there" with our fast jets; in abt 7 yr's time :(
Timmymagic wrote:There is a smart move the UK could make on this that would address the obsolescence of Harpoon 1C on surface ships, plus arm Typhoon, P-8 and F-35, whilst also providing a sub-surface ASM for SSN's and ASM for T31 after 2030 but I doubt we'll make it.

- yes, been banging on that scenario for many more years than these pages have operated
- we could economise and leave the Tiffie integration out... and it would still be a good plan!

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 15 Jan 2019, 13:03

From the comments above, I am assuming the F-35 has all the black boxes built in to locate, and identify ground based threats, then pass the information on the a weapon system. A variant of ASRAAM or other missile in this role would require a seeker that can home in on a hostile emitter and remember where it was if the target goes dark. Ideally it would have a second seeker to aid in hitting a mobile target if needed.

My preferred approach would be to have small UAV able to be carrier and launched from a fast jet or other platform, that would go ahead of its parent, sniff out any hostile emitters and kamikaze into it.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 15 Jan 2019, 13:25

Timmymagic wrote:We're clearly missing some capabilities, off the top of my head...with suggestions..


One more....

- A MALD-J type jammer. Actually pretty easy for the UK to generate. MBDA SmartGlider or SPEAR (for powered version) body, stick a BriteCloud inside and fit a much larger battery/fuel cell power source (RAM air would likely restrict range dramatically) to prolong duration as BriteCloud only has a 10 second lifespan due to battery life. Easy peasy.


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