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Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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Lord Jim
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 10 Dec 2018, 20:39

Isn't the RAF looking into multi-munition adapters of the Typhoon to increase its load out of both A2G and A2A munitions?

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 10 Dec 2018, 22:16

Lord Jim wrote:Isn't the RAF looking into multi-munition adapters of the Typhoon to increase its load out of both A2G and A2A munitions?


There has certainly been mock-ups shown of 2 x Paveway IV, and triple racks for Spear and Brimstone. Looks like the rack for the Spear and Brimstone will be procured. Not sure if there have been any Asraam mounted on these though.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 10 Dec 2018, 22:28

Timmymagic wrote: triple racks for Spear and Brimstone. Looks like the rack for the Spear and Brimstone will be procured.


How different are the dimensions for those? I.e.can the same solution serve for both?

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby handal » 10 Dec 2018, 23:33

Image

As it's such a great image and such an impressive loadout ;D. So I'm going to be the odd man out.
Does it really matter if the Tranch 1 can't do A2G...if it can do this..?! Also are they really going to be expensive to purchase if no one can get rid of them ..? So , a King Arthur daily moment..well we can't offer you near full price as it's just a tranch 1, but...It might even up the export order and future potential orders.
I can't remember, as it's so long ago, if the Aesa could not be fitted or it was felt at the time not worthwhile, but even then you've still got the Irst.
Also, if you're going to get into BVR's wth Su's a 2 seat version/conversion, if do able with a WSO would be much better for that; it's always bothered me that all of the existing and future proposed 5th gen's have waay more information available, including extended WVR from the DAS, and that spells, and has shown to be development problem causing delays from information overload. It's a hell of a way to add to the OODA loop :/. The 2 seat F35, that I last heard mentioned during the Israeli purchase, seems to have disappeared..:/.
Would a cheap buy back Gen4 typhoon ADV actually be such a bad thing when we're so short of aircraft ? The last time I heard what the actual available aircraft no's were it turned air defence into an oxymoron for me ;[
After all do all fighters have to drop bomb's ? The F15 did just fine without this "capability" for ages and many felt that it should stay that way as why put big ADV in the way of AAA when you've got a cheaper more expendable F16 for that...and more of them.
I've always felt that our treacherous politicians, who mostly want to spend nothing on defense so thay don't have a capability that they might have to use, like Nott and Maggie before the Falklands came along and spoilt their party ;D; and thank god for that..
When we stopped building, or buying, bombers at all re the expense it was total BS for me; ya don't need 100+..just enough to get the message across. A squadron of B1/B2's that could drop a few dozen cruise missiles and no Falklands; which is the whole point of deterence.
During one escalation of tension and hostilities back in the day with Indonesia one senior Indonesian officer suggested an aggresive response only to be immediately rebuked with Do you Really want to annoy the Australians whose RAAF have a plane (the F111) that can drop a 2000lb bomb on that table in front of you ?! ;D
I persoanlly think bombers should still do most of the bombing, but a dual role is nice for expeditionary use...until range is an issue ;/
It's just another cynical dump on the yanks for me :[
Maybe someone should start a why don't we have bombers in the RAF topic, at the very least it would be good for annoying self serving politicians....never a bad thing in my book ;D

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 11 Dec 2018, 03:53

It is an impressive loadout, regarding its capability but as for numbers four BVR and four WVR AAMs is what used to be par for the course, it has just taken the Typhoon a while to get there.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 11 Dec 2018, 08:05

handal wrote:Does it really matter if the Tranch 1 can't do A2G...if it can do this..?


The problem is that Tranche 1 can't do that.

Thats a Tranche 3 Typhoon. Tranche 1's will never have the ability to launch Meteor or get the AESA radar, along with a whole lot of other goodies.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 11 Dec 2018, 08:12

ArmChairCivvy wrote:How different are the dimensions for those? I.e.can the same solution serve for both?


Certainly width wise yes, but length is different, if they've accommodated that (which I'm sure the RAF would insist on) we'll be fine. The smartest move would be a rack that could carry 3 Spear or 6 Brimstone. That would retain the Tornado's max loadout of Brimstone following its retirement and not block a wet pylon.

A double Asraam pylon would be nice for the outer stations, but probably isn't worth the hassle unless it would allow us to put a targeting pod on the opposite wing which would free up the wet centreline station.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 11 Dec 2018, 09:04

Originally ASRAMM was displayed carried on three round launchers at Farnborough, and even earlier mocked up in double launch tubes with retractable end caps..

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby SW1 » 11 Dec 2018, 09:10

Typhoon has been carrying 4 bvr missiles (amraam) 4 Asraam 2/3 tanks and a gun since it took over QRA from the tornado in about 2006!

Good to see meteor and the rest of project centurion now on typhoon. Lot of work involved to get there.

Tranche 1 typhoon does have a Air to ground capability as was demonstrated during operations in Libya, were it flew with litening pod and 4 paveway 2 bombs and 4 amraam and 2 asraam. It’s unlikely the RAF will utilise those a/c in that role in future however.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 11 Dec 2018, 13:59

Lord Jim wrote:Originally ASRAMM was displayed carried on three round launchers at Farnborough, and even earlier mocked up in double launch tubes with retractable end caps..


That wasn't ASRAAM that was SRAAM in the launch tubes, which was a completely different missile from the 70's. Pioneered thrust vectoring before it was cool, very manoeuvrable but short ranged. The triple racked ASRAAM may have been the BAE Typhoon which was an Asraam based competitor to Brimstone (which may actually get resurrected by MBDA...)

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 11 Dec 2018, 14:01

SW1 wrote:Typhoon has been carrying 4 bvr missiles (amraam) 4 Asraam 2/3 tanks and a gun since it took over QRA from the tornado in about 2006!


To be fair the 4 x Asraam loadout is unusual, usually its 2 x Asraam. I suspect 2 is the usual loadout, but as the RAF wanted the best possible picture for this QRA with Meteor they hung an extra 2 on.
In fact the QRA didn't intercept anything....all rather convenient....

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 11 Dec 2018, 15:16

SW1 wrote:Tranche 1 typhoon does have a Air to ground capability as was demonstrated during operations in Libya


That is the "Saudi-interim spec" as they would not have bought ANY w/o it.
Timmymagic wrote: I suspect 2 is the usual loadout, but as the RAF wanted the best possible picture for this QRA with Meteor they hung an extra 2 on.
In fact the QRA didn't intercept anything
:D

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby SW1 » 11 Dec 2018, 15:38

Timmymagic wrote:
SW1 wrote:Typhoon has been carrying 4 bvr missiles (amraam) 4 Asraam 2/3 tanks and a gun since it took over QRA from the tornado in about 2006!


To be fair the 4 x Asraam loadout is unusual, usually its 2 x Asraam. I suspect 2 is the usual loadout, but as the RAF wanted the best possible picture for this QRA with Meteor they hung an extra 2 on.
In fact the QRA didn't intercept anything....all rather convenient....


It’s been 4 asraam on the qra jets since it was introduced on the f3 and before that the 4 sidewinder 4 bvr missile load has been standard on q jets since the phantom if memory serves.


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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 20 Dec 2018, 17:18

A nice photo of the nose cone (open) in the above.

However, the statement " The Eurofighter’s nose is larger than that of all the comparable fighters, which means that the antenna is much larger and consequently more powerful than that of competing aircraft." must refer to export competition between fighters from the West
- as it does not look quite the 1.4 meters of the Zaslon-M on Mig-31s

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 03 Jan 2019, 12:24

Interesting year coming up for Typhoon....
A couple of nations need to make long put off and hence now urgent decisions due to the production lines possibly shutting down in a couple of years, retirement of legacy platforms, political considerations and industrial reasons...

Spain
There are some reports that the Spanish may be looking to order additional Typhoon to replace some of their older EF-18.
The Spanish currently operate 85 Hornets (out of 102 delivered, which included 24 ex-USN F-18A). It's their principal combat aircraft, and outnumbers their Typhoon fleet. They are all upgraded F-18A/B's delivered between 1985 and 1990 (apart from the ex-USN ones which are slightly older). Like the Australian and Canadian F-18A/B's they have limited time left. Retirement between 2025 and 2030 has been mentioned, which does tally with Australian and Canadian experience, which is relevant as they are both F-18 land based users. It does appear that they're only looking to replace the oldest aircraft in the fleet. This would also have a rather useful effect of keeping the Spanish line running a little longer (perhaps with an eye on NGF production given Airbus Military being based in Spain).

The situation is a little clouded by NGF not being expected before 2030 and possibly arriving as late as 2040 (more likely). This would leave a large gap to say the least. Could this mean a decent Typhoon order? Spain running their Tranche 1's until replaced by NGF? The EAV-8B+ are also due a replacement, from 2025 onwards, of which the only possibility is the F-35B (there are only 13 Harriers though). As mini-carriers seem all the rage its unlikely the Spanish Navy will want to give up their fixed wing capability, but such a small fleet may mean they need to work closely with the RN, Italian Navy or USMC for support. Not sure if it means F-35A is more or less likely though, I suspect not.

Germany
Seems to be dawning on the Germans that retaining Tornado until 2035 may be unfeasible/hugely expensive. The withdrawal from service with the RAF, RSAF soon and by 2025 the Italians means the Germans have to pay all sustainment costs, and organisation costs themselves, they're trying to see if the other nations will continue to pay past their retirement dates, which is quite frankly barking mad and isn't going to happen. Even if they purchase the whole RAF parts stockpile, remaining fleet and RSAF gear it might still be very expensive to get them to retirement date. As for a replacement the German military favours the F-35 (reportedly) with political support for Typhoon replacing Tornado. If the Germans also make an additional order, which politically seems more likely than F-35 (and also keeps their line running longer...and in contention for NGF work) they'll need to do it soon to keep the line open and start integration of the B-61/12.

I'm beginning to suspect that we may be about to see some additional orders for Typhoon.....c24 initially for Spain and c48 for Germany, with possibly more down the road (Spain and Germany would probably need another 24 each beyond that to bridge the gap to NGF and cover Tranche 1 retirement). Whatever happens it needs to happen soon though...

I'm beginning to wonder if the UK putting an additional order of c24 in to maintain the UK production line may also become necessary/cost effective to cover the ramp up to the Tempest programme. Be nice if we could extract another 24 out of the Qatari's as well...

And allegedly there are increasing tensions in the NGF programme...

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... nados.html

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby abc123 » 04 Jan 2019, 10:45

I think that the Spain might go UK route and buy small Joint Lightning Force, say 30-40, so that they can have 8-10 F-35B for JCI, and another squadron for Air Force. In that case just B-variant buy makes sense.

Plus that 24+ buy of Tranche 3 Typhoons.

How do they use their T1 Typhoons? 13 of them IIRC.
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What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 04 Jan 2019, 16:10

abc123 wrote:I think that the Spain might go UK route and buy small Joint Lightning Force, say 30-40, so that they can have 8-10 F-35B for JCI, and another squadron for Air Force. In that case just B-variant buy makes sense.


This is possible, and does alleviate some of the EF-18 retirement gap. They look to be running their EAV-8B out as far as possible, maybe 2030, which could tie in with the last EF-18 retirement. An all F-35B fleet could make sense, but they could go down the Italian route and have a split fleet. You have to wonder at the logic of having such a tiny fleet of STOVL in the first place (and the same could be applied to the Italians), I'm not sure if the Spanish are planning any additional air capable vessels, but its notable that the Galicia Class will need replacement around 2030 and the direction of travel seems to be for flat topped LHD's with F-35B capability.
The big issue would be Airbus' opposition. They'd be ok with an F-35B buy to replace the EAV-8B (they could hardly complain) but they'd be furious at a buy that went beyond that as it would clearly cut into Eurofighter/NGF production. The Spanish also don't have the need for B-61 delivery that the Germans have, which will need to be resolved by Eurofighter. The Spanish will end up with 3 types of combat aircraft whatever happens, I just wonder if 3.5 types would complicate matters further with a split buy.

abc123 wrote:How do they use their T1 Typhoons? 13 of them IIRC.


Genuinely no idea. I suspect they'll be using them for QRA duties like the RAF and extracting as much value out of them as possible. Not sure if they have used them with an A2G capability. I'm also not sure how up to date the Spanish Typhoons are, given the Spanish budgetary problems I'd expect them to be nowhere near the RAF's capability, certainly nowhere near the UK's Centurion upgrades, which would lead you to think that the Spanish Air Force relies almost exclusively on it's EF-18 for air to ground work.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby abc123 » 05 Jan 2019, 12:22

It seems that the original deliveries of 73 Typhoons will be finished by end of 2019. Now they have 3 active squadrons, presumably 2 Tranche 2 and 1 Tranche 1. I presume that when all 73 are delivered, they will have another, Tranche 3 squadron. So, that would be 4 active squadrons. Now, with say another 24 Tranche 3B, they could form 5th squadron, or they could replace Tranche 1 in service.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

Lord Jim
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 05 Jan 2019, 14:20

A lot depends on what Germany does. If they go ahead with an additional purchase of Tranche 3B+ then I could see Spain following suit, with them buying enough for at least one possibly two squadrons. The Tranche 1s would be retained and probably go down to the Canaries to replace the EF-18s there, leaving four or five squadrons on the mainland. I seriously cannot see them buying more than 14 F-35Bs to re-equip their Naval air wing and very unlikely they will purchase any F-35A for the Airforce.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby abc123 » 05 Jan 2019, 20:43

Lord Jim wrote:A lot depends on what Germany does. If they go ahead with an additional purchase of Tranche 3B+ then I could see Spain following suit, with them buying enough for at least one possibly two squadrons. The Tranche 1s would be retained and probably go down to the Canaries to replace the EF-18s there, leaving four or five squadrons on the mainland. I seriously cannot see them buying more than 14 F-35Bs to re-equip their Naval air wing and very unlikely they will purchase any F-35A for the Airforce.


But there's no sense to buy just 14 of them. Maybe say another 14, at least, also B-variant ( for commonality ) for their Air Force, just to try to keep up with technology and introduce something of 5th generation before that new French/German project enters service.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

Lord Jim
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 05 Jan 2019, 23:13

They only bought that number of AV-8As and AV-8Bs in the past, and with funding tight I cannot see them change their attitude to carrier jet numbers that are procured. They might however join up with Italy for deep maintenance capabilities.

Whether the Air Force get any F-35As is a different question and as I mentioned if the Germans go ahead and purchase additional Typhoons, as the infrastructure is in place, It may be seen as the cheaper alternative to follow suit. The Spanish like most of NATO's southern members historically have kept older aircraft in service longer than their northern partners. In addition they may see the benefits of the F-35A verses a Typhoon Tranche 3B+ are not great enough to sway their decision. Maybe further down the road when the Tranche 2 Typhoons need replacing and then the F-35 should have European competition.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby abc123 » 06 Jan 2019, 09:46

Lord Jim wrote:They only bought that number of AV-8As and AV-8Bs in the past, and with funding tight I cannot see them change their attitude to carrier jet numbers that are procured. They might however join up with Italy for deep maintenance capabilities.



Yep, but ther's a big diference between Harrier II and F-35B. OK, I know that Spanish industrial participation in F-35 project is non existant, and 14% in Eurofighter, but considering Morocco flies F-16 Block 52, and they have allways wanted to have a technological edge over Morocco...
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

Lord Jim
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 06 Jan 2019, 14:52

Well Typhoon will give them that, especially if the Spanish follow the development path for the platform. The F-16 is really at the end of its evolution whereas the Typhoon is in reality still at the beginning.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby abc123 » 06 Jan 2019, 20:56

Lord Jim wrote:Well Typhoon will give them that, especially if the Spanish follow the development path for the platform. The F-16 is really at the end of its evolution whereas the Typhoon is in reality still at the beginning.


Not quite sure. I mean, OK, Typhoon has certain advantages over F-16, but when we put AESA radar and CFT on both of them, we are at the start again. That's pretty much that can be done with Typhoon and F-16 in the future, except for certain weapons to be integrated.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…


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