UK Defence Forum

News, History, Discussions and Debates on UK Defence.

Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
abc123
Senior Member
Posts: 1744
Joined: 10 May 2015, 18:15

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby abc123 » 10 May 2018, 11:03

shark bait wrote:dumb bombs? the RAF dont use dumb bombs.

The Tranche 1 aircraft have already used Paveway II operationally, but this will soon be out of service in the RAF. There is little that would prohibit Paveway IV being integrated on the early aircraft, other than money.

Keeping the tranche 1's as an air defence platform is a bit of a guff option, it wont get the new radar, or Meteor, making it a much less capable aircraft.


Yes, I know that RAF don't use them, I just wanted to sad that they CAN use them.
So, they CAN use Paveway 2? And have used them?
So they have Litening integrated or have to get laser ilumination from another source?
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 5297
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Location: Pitcairn Island

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby shark bait » 10 May 2018, 11:36

Tranche 1 can and have used Paveway 2 operationally. They also can use Litening, but it was never properly integrated, it was a bit of a bodge, and definitely wasn't a swing role implementation.

It was just an interim effort to finally get some multi-role use out of the shiny new multi-role fighter, before Tranche 2 came along and did things properly.
@LandSharkUK

abc123
Senior Member
Posts: 1744
Joined: 10 May 2015, 18:15

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby abc123 » 10 May 2018, 11:48

shark bait wrote:Tranche 1 can and have used Paveway 2 operationally. They also can use Litening, but it was never properly integrated, it was a bit of a bodge, and definitely wasn't a swing role implementation.

It was just an interim effort to finally get some multi-role use out of the shiny new multi-role fighter, before Tranche 2 came along and did things properly.


About T1, I wonder did they came from factory with IRIS-T/ASRAAM/AMRAAM allready integrated or that was added later when in service?
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

User avatar
Gabriele
Senior Member
Posts: 1881
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:53
Location: Italy
Contact:

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Gabriele » 10 May 2018, 21:52

About T1, I wonder did they came from factory with IRIS-T/ASRAAM/AMRAAM allready integrated or that was added later when in service?


ASRAAM was integrated quite early, but probably had a phase of only partial functionality. The full, digital integration of Iris-T was still not underway in 2016.

The last AMRAAM integration shot from IPA-2 was in 2008, well after formal entry in service.

For years the Typhoon carried Sidewinder (in italian service at least, due to Iris-T coming late) and until Block 5 it used AIM-120B AMRAAMs, not yet C5s.

Until retrofitted, the early blocks didn't even have the IRST on board. People has mostly forgotten how much stuff was simply not there when the Typhoon became "operational".
You might also know me as Liger30, from that great forum than MP.net was.

Arma Pacis Fulcra.
Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

abc123
Senior Member
Posts: 1744
Joined: 10 May 2015, 18:15

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby abc123 » 10 May 2018, 22:07

Gabriele wrote:
Until retrofitted, the early blocks didn't even have the IRST on board. People has mostly forgotten how much stuff was simply not there when the Typhoon became "operational".



When did that happen?

Interesting, thanks.

Digital integration? Can you explain that term?
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

User avatar
Gabriele
Senior Member
Posts: 1881
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:53
Location: Italy
Contact:

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Gabriele » 10 May 2018, 22:17

The R2 retrofit, which for the UK was completed in 2012, brought back to factory 43 out of the 53 Tranche 1 aircraft for the RAF for bringing them up to the "final" Tranche 1 block standard, introducing the IRST on the aircraft that didn't have them; and automatic chaff and flare rather than manual discharge as on delivery. https://www.airforce-technology.com/new ... etrofit-2/

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... ndard.html

I suppose there was a Retrofit 1 at some point. Maybe a more invasive intervention on late deliveries Tranche 1, but information on Typhoon has never been and never will be anywhere near as complete as F-35 reporting.

Digital integration? Can you explain that term?


I think it relates mostly to symbology on the displays and HMD. Analogic integration is easier, and you can fire the missile, but you don't get all functionality nor all information on screen.
You might also know me as Liger30, from that great forum than MP.net was.

Arma Pacis Fulcra.
Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

abc123
Senior Member
Posts: 1744
Joined: 10 May 2015, 18:15

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby abc123 » 11 May 2018, 12:38

Gabriele wrote:The R2 retrofit, which for the UK was completed in 2012, brought back to factory 43 out of the 53 Tranche 1 aircraft for the RAF for bringing them up to the "final" Tranche 1 block standard, introducing the IRST on the aircraft that didn't have them; and automatic chaff and flare rather than manual discharge as on delivery. https://www.airforce-technology.com/new ... etrofit-2/

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... ndard.html

I suppose there was a Retrofit 1 at some point. Maybe a more invasive intervention on late deliveries Tranche 1, but information on Typhoon has never been and never will be anywhere near as complete as F-35 reporting.

Digital integration? Can you explain that term?


I think it relates mostly to symbology on the displays and HMD. Analogic integration is easier, and you can fire the missile, but you don't get all functionality nor all information on screen.


Thanks. What I'm trying to see is comparing how much sense would in say 2010 buying used Tranche 1 aircrafts ( Spain offered their 18 Tranche 1 to Peru for 61 mil. USD ) would have in comparison with buying new aircrafts like F-16 ( the cost at the time was about 80 mil. USD ).
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

Ron5
Senior Member
Posts: 3251
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
Location: United States of America

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Ron5 » 11 May 2018, 16:38

Sure, that was the reason (eyes roll).

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 8027
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 11 May 2018, 19:22

shark bait wrote:It was just an interim effort to finally get some multi-role use out of the shiny new multi-role fighter, before Tranche 2 came along and did things properly.


You seem not to have read on what was the Saudi rqrmnt (for them to buy Typhoon in the first place)?
- and then the RAF got the benefit... if it can be called the benefit. As the Tornado fleet OSD moved from 2024 to 2018... with this "new" kid on the block supposedly being good enough for their "job" too

Gabriele wrote:nformation on Typhoon has never been and never will be anywhere near as complete as F-35 reporting.

- too right!

abc123 wrote: I'm trying to see is comparing how much sense would in say 2010 buying used Tranche 1 a/c would have in comparison with buying new aircrafts like F-16

... that would be Bulgaria/ Romania thread...perhaps?

abc123
Senior Member
Posts: 1744
Joined: 10 May 2015, 18:15

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby abc123 » 11 May 2018, 19:58

ArmChairCivvy wrote:... that would be Bulgaria/ Romania thread...perhaps?


Well, maybe yes, but not just them- more general theoretical discussion, frex Greece had some plans about Typhoons before crisis too...

So, let's say that you are in their ( Greek ) shoes in say 2010/11, and if there's no crisis, or at least not such disaster, would you take more of the same ( F-16 Block 52- price say 80 mil. USD ) or used Tranche 1 Typhoons ( from say Spain, UK etc.- never mind, price 60-65 mil. USD )?
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

abc123
Senior Member
Posts: 1744
Joined: 10 May 2015, 18:15

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby abc123 » 11 May 2018, 19:59

Ron5 wrote:Sure, that was the reason (eyes roll).


:eh:
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

User avatar
Gabriele
Senior Member
Posts: 1881
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:53
Location: Italy
Contact:

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Gabriele » 11 May 2018, 20:11

Sincerely, i don't think anyone will ever want second hand Typhoon tranche 1 unless they are sold for a a literal song. And event then it is questionable due to capability limitations and support costs.
You might also know me as Liger30, from that great forum than MP.net was.

Arma Pacis Fulcra.
Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

abc123
Senior Member
Posts: 1744
Joined: 10 May 2015, 18:15

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby abc123 » 12 May 2018, 09:46

Gabriele wrote:Sincerely, i don't think anyone will ever want second hand Typhoon tranche 1 unless they are sold for a a literal song. And event then it is questionable due to capability limitations and support costs.


I agree that now it's too late for that, but I see larger problem in support costs. Capabilities can be added later if needed more than basic a2g that allready has.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 1799
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 12 May 2018, 17:15

It was probably some or all of the above that gave the suits the idea of suggesting that the RAF retain the T1 Typhoons to form two extra squadrons, basically use them or lose them. For air policing they do the job fine and any bogey isn't going to know if its a T1, T2 or T3 of his wing of seen on radar in most cases.

Ron5
Senior Member
Posts: 3251
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
Location: United States of America

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Ron5 » 12 May 2018, 19:29

Does that make questions asked here about the config/capabilities of the T1's, ones that shouldn't be answered?

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 1799
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 13 May 2018, 11:48

You're probably right about that.

abc123
Senior Member
Posts: 1744
Joined: 10 May 2015, 18:15

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby abc123 » 13 May 2018, 12:53

Don't see why not. These are probably publicly available data, so I don't think that people here ( or in any other public forum ) would: a) know a lot of real classified informations ( most of us here are just armchair generals/admirals, no offence to anybody, if anyone, I'm one of them ) and b) even if they know real classified data, I really think that nobody is foolish enough to publish them here or elsewhere, if nothing, that's against their own interests...
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 1799
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 13 May 2018, 19:52

Certain things are beyond what we discuss here, and can only guess at. Saying that the load out of the T1 Typhoons is pretty much public knowledge, I suppose the area that could be sensitive is what tweaks were done to the airframes prior to the squadrons being stood up.

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 5297
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Location: Pitcairn Island

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby shark bait » 14 May 2018, 07:58

Lord Jim wrote: For air policing they do the job fine and any bogey isn't going to know if its a T1, T2 or T3 of his wing of seen on radar in most cases.


Not visually, but having a different radar chirping at you will give it away.
@LandSharkUK

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 1799
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 14 May 2018, 16:16

That is one of the areas I would think would be sensitive. Anyhow by the time our Typhoons get the AESA radar the Tranche 1s will have gone.

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 5297
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Location: Pitcairn Island

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby shark bait » 14 May 2018, 16:27

That's true.

Do we even know when the P4E is due to land? And on what aircraf? At the moment only the Tranche 3 are equipped for CAPTORe.
@LandSharkUK

sunstersun
Member
Posts: 203
Joined: 09 Aug 2017, 04:00
Location: United States of America

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby sunstersun » 15 May 2018, 00:19

man why is the typhoon aesa radar so delayed compared to the rafale radar.

just crazy.

Timmymagic
Member
Posts: 958
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 15 May 2018, 01:13

sunstersun wrote:man why is the typhoon aesa radar so delayed compared to the rafale radar.

just crazy.


Obviously funding is the main issue. But also Captor is a damned good radar as it is. It's obviously the pinnacle of doppler radar development. Just because a radar is an AESA doesn't necessarily mean its better. Rafale has a very small nose, so it really needed the performance boost that going AESA would bring. Typhoon with its much larger nose, and therefore radar, doesn't need the increased performance as much as it already has a very long ranged radar. Even with AESA Rafale will struggle to match the performance that Captor gives Typhoon. With Captor-E the difference will again be a gulf. You just can't get around size in the end...(and the swash plate..)

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 8027
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 15 May 2018, 02:33

Timmymagic wrote: the swash plate..)


Interesting feature as it is also coming to the new Gripen (which does not have acres of space)
- however, for the legacy Gripens (C/D) Saab improved the backend processing of the preceding, mechanical radar enough to make the arming of them with Meteors practical
-I have not seen any Rafale or Gripen statements claiming to match (not to mention improve) the Captor's 120 (+) degrees forward aspect

And talking about acres of space (to compensate for lagging technology, in this case PESA) the diameter showing here on a Mig-31 is 1.4 meters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_M ... 02246.JPEG

Timmymagic
Member
Posts: 958
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 15 May 2018, 07:49

ArmChairCivvy wrote:And talking about acres of space (to compensate for lagging technology, in this case PESA) the diameter showing here on a Mig-31 is 1.4 meters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_M ... 02246.JPEG


It was the same back in the day, despite being very basic the MiG-25's radar still had some use due to it's sheer size and power.

It still remainds doubtful if Gripens radar will be able to fully exploit Meteors range as well (it's marginal for Rafale as well, and it only has a one way datalink).


Return to “Royal Air Force”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: gordon44 and 28 guests