Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

[ArmChairCivvy]

Ramping up for nxt-gen?

Wasn't it France for the airframe and Germany for the systems? Never like that, but in the main
- they will only be building the stuff in the 30s... so a bit of a bridge (may cost 'some', but who cares)

[bobp]

I'm left very puzzled why Germany is dissatisfied by the job being done by the present consortium. Can they still not get it to work?

The present consortium is led by UK. Perhaps its a political move of some sort as UK is leaving EU.

[SW1]

A divergence of requirement. One wishing for an emphasis on air to air the other requiring more air to ground.

[Aethulwulf]

Leonardo UK builds the current Captor E-Scan. This baseline AESA is referred to as Radar Mk 0, and is the system slated for Kuwait and Qatar, as well as initially for Luftwaffe Tranche 2 and 3 Eurofighters.

The E-Scan radar Mk1 will be built in Germany by HENSOLDT and will be retro-fitted to the Luftwaffe Eurofighters.

The UK is interested in the Mk2, which will add EW capabilities. As yet, an unfunded aspiration.

The work share arrangements in the Eurofighter consortium is complex but basically the more each country spends the greater the work share for their country they are allowed.

[Ron5]

Leonardo UK builds the current Captor E-Scan. This baseline AESA is referred to as Radar Mk 0, and is the system slated for Kuwait and Qatar, as well as initially for Luftwaffe Tranche 2 and 3 Eurofighters.

The E-Scan radar Mk1 will be built in Germany by HENSOLDT and will be retro-fitted to the Luftwaffe Eurofighters.

The UK is interested in the Mk2, which will add EW capabilities. As yet, an unfunded aspiration.

The work share arrangements in the Eurofighter consortium is complex but basically the more each country spends the greater the work share for their country they are allowed.

So the UK could in theory dump the Leonardo without using it once in an RAF airframe, and go with the German radar? That sounds like there's something really badly wrong with the earlier offering.

Or am I still confused?

[Aethulwulf]

Leonardo is the design authority for AESA Radar 0, which will be fitted to the aircraft for Kuwait, Qatar and initially Germany for their tranche 2 and 3 aircraft. Kuwait is expected to receive their first aircraft in September.

Hensoldt will assume the role of design authority for Radar 1, which will have a new digital multichannel receiver to transform it from Radar 0 to Radar 1.

Radar 1 will be retro-fitted to the Germany aircraft with Radar 0, and fitted to the new Eurofighters that Germany is about to order. The Spanish will also upgrade their tranche 2 and 3 aircraft to Radar 1.

The UK is going down its own road with a more advance system yet called Radar 2, which will have Electronic Attack capabilities. It is likely that the Italians will chose Radar 2 for their aircraft upgrade.

As part of their Tornado replacement programme, Germany is looking to buy aircraft with a EA capability but appears likely to pick the EF-18G Growler. Airbus did pitch Eurofighters with Radar 2 for this role. Germany also appears to be going to buy F-18s that the US will certify to carry the B61 nuclear bomb.

Eurofighter export customers will have their pick of any of the three radar systems.

Is there a significant difference between Radar 0 and Radar 1, or is this just an excuse to allow German money to be spent on kit made in Germany? You decided.

Should the UK have decided to upgrade its aircraft to Radar 0 three or four years ago...? You decided.

Will the UK ever find the money for the Radar 2 upgrade... tbd.

And finally, is the Eurofighter consortium beginning to separate into different factions, each with an eye on their own 6th Generation fighter projects? You decide.

[Pseudo]

Should the UK have decided to upgrade its aircraft to Radar 0 three or four years ago...? You decided.

Will the UK ever find the money for the Radar 2 upgrade... tbd.

My feeling is that if the Italians select Radar 2 then there's half a chance that the UK will adopt it, but then I think that there's an equally good chance that it'll end up with only Italian Typhoon's receiving the upgrade and the UK deciding to class it as a stepping stone development on the road to Tempest.

[Timmymagic]

My feeling is that if the Italians select Radar 2 then there's half a chance that the UK will adopt it, but then I think that there's an equally good chance that it'll end up with only Italian Typhoon's receiving the upgrade and the UK deciding to class it as a stepping stone development on the road to Tempest.

The really crucial decision might be which one the Saudi's want....

But realistically this is all about national industrial concerns. The UK will go with Leonardo Radar 2 as we need it to make sure we have a top end radar industry, the Saudis, Omanis and Italians will want that radar as well. The Germans were looking at Leonardo's Radar 2 as well, at least for some applications, but are clearly looking at their future share of FCAS work. So they're trying to get Hensoldt into the air radar game ahead of that by developing their own radar, for the first time, and thats risky. Thats fair enough at this time in the programme, particularly if they in effect subsidise Leonardo for Radar 0 by a large buy beforehand...

[Pseudo]

The really crucial decision might be which one the Saudi's want....

But realistically this is all about national industrial concerns. The UK will go with Leonardo Radar 2 as we need it to make sure we have a top end radar industry, the Saudis, Omanis and Italians will want that radar as well. The Germans were looking at Leonardo's Radar 2 as well, at least for some applications, but are clearly looking at their future share of FCAS work. So they're trying to get Hensoldt into the air radar game ahead of that by developing their own radar, for the first time, and thats risky. Thats fair enough at this time in the programme, particularly if they in effect subsidise Leonardo for Radar 0 by a large buy beforehand...

Frankly, given that buying 90 Typhoon's to replace their Tornado's puts German procurement well above the level that its work share was based on makes it entirely reasonable for them to want to develop their own version of ESCAN in order to establish expertise in an area that will give them a leg up when it comes to developing FCAS. It might cause consternation on Crewe Road if FCAS and Tempest merge, but that's an "if" and one that will have to be dealt with if it happens.

[Timmymagic]

For all the criticism of the US procurement system and pork barrel politics in the procurement of military kit the German one really leaves them in the shade. It makes sense for the Germans to fund the development of Radar 1. As to the potential Typhoon and SuperHornet order I wonder just how nailed on that is post covid. If anything I wonder if it makes the SuperHornet buy, and the overall size less likely.

[SW1]

Being able to use a common airframe that has the ability to accept different major sub systems is something that is common in the civil side of the market and likely a good direction for the military side in so much that it allows more national development of the expensive bits. Issues being the airframe need to be designed with agreed interfaces, and the airframe needs to be set against a specific requirement.

[Jensy]

For all the criticism of the US procurement system and pork barrel politics in the procurement of military kit the German one really leaves them in the shade. It makes sense for the Germans to fund the development of Radar 1. As to the potential Typhoon and SuperHornet order I wonder just how nailed on that is post covid. If anything I wonder if it makes the SuperHornet buy, and the overall size less likely.

There's a video posted up-thread talking about 'why Germany won't buy the Super Rhino'. Quite a bit of wide speculation as German politics is a very complex beast.

The parties to the 'left' of Merkel seem to want to cut all spending on fighters, whether they're Typhoons or Super Hornets. The powerful manufacturing unions unsurprisingly only want them to buy Typhoons and, for all intents and purposes, the Luftwaffe probably still wants F-35 and everything else is a compromise.

This is further complicated by the US elections, and whoever is president by January 2020. A Biden victory could well put F-35 back on the table as relations improve from their current low point, whereas four more years of Trump will probably encourage Europe to be more independent on defence.

By accident or design, the UK has found itself in a position where the three biggest selling Western fighters from the last two decades (Typhoon/Gripen/F-35) are all partially built here and include substantial UK content. Aside from Typhoon the Germans don't have that luxury and industrial politics will become even more crucial post-Covid.

[dmereifield]

For all the criticism of the US procurement system and pork barrel politics in the procurement of military kit the German one really leaves them in the shade. It makes sense for the Germans to fund the development of Radar 1. As to the potential Typhoon and SuperHornet order I wonder just how nailed on that is post covid. If anything I wonder if it makes the SuperHornet buy, and the overall size less likely.

There's a video posted up-thread talking about 'why Germany won't buy the Super Rhino'. Quite a bit of wide speculation as German politics is a very complex beast.

The parties to the 'left' of Merkel seem to want to cut all spending on fighters, whether they're Typhoons or Super Hornets. The powerful manufacturing unions unsurprisingly only want them to buy Typhoons and, for all intents and purposes, the Luftwaffe probably still wants F-35 and everything else is a compromise.

This is further complicated by the US elections, and whoever is president by January 2020. A Biden victory could well put F-35 back on the table as relations improve from their current low point, whereas four more years of Trump will probably encourage Europe to be more independent on defence.

By accident or design, the UK has found itself in a position where the three biggest selling Western fighters from the last two decades (Typhoon/Gripen/F-35) are all partially built here and include substantial UK content. Aside from Typhoon the Germans don't have that luxury and industrial politics will become even more crucial post-Covid.

Substantial seems to be a slight exaggeration for the F35...what's the UK Gripren content? If memory serves that's about halfway between the F35 and Eurofighter share, isnt it?

[Jensy]

By accident or design, the UK has found itself in a position where the three biggest selling Western fighters from the last two decades (Typhoon/Gripen/F-35) are all partially built here and include substantial UK content. Aside from Typhoon the Germans don't have that luxury and industrial politics will become even more crucial post-Covid.

Substantial seems to be a slight exaggeration for the F35...what's the UK Gripren content? If memory serves that's about halfway between the F35 and Eurofighter share, isnt it?

In terms of absolute percentage, yeah it's not overly 'substantial'. However, F-35 is so much larger a programme than the other two that even at less than the disputed 15% UK workshare, our involvement is worth more than 37.5% of Typhoon.

Gripen I seem to remember being 30-33% UK value and that's with an entirely non-British powerplant, unlike the other two.

[Timmymagic]

There's a video posted up-thread talking about 'why Germany won't buy the Super Rhino'. Quite a bit of wide speculation as German politics is a very complex beast.

I think that was me that posted it.

There were reports in the press the other day about the MoD and industry pleading with the Treasury to bring forward investment in Tempest and other projects like FSS to protect industry and jobs. Looks like the Treasury is yet to be convinced. Meanwhile...the Germans are pushing forward with plans to safeguard their combat air capability and avionics business and the French have chucked 15bn EUR at theirs....

I've got an awful feeling the Treasury is going to ruin everything....just like they did with investment in armoured vehicles post cold war...

[Ron5]

Leonardo is the design authority for AESA Radar 0, which will be fitted to the aircraft for Kuwait, Qatar and initially Germany for their tranche 2 and 3 aircraft. Kuwait is expected to receive their first aircraft in September.

Hensoldt will assume the role of design authority for Radar 1, which will have a new digital multichannel receiver to transform it from Radar 0 to Radar 1.

Radar 1 will be retro-fitted to the Germany aircraft with Radar 0, and fitted to the new Eurofighters that Germany is about to order. The Spanish will also upgrade their tranche 2 and 3 aircraft to Radar 1.

The UK is going down its own road with a more advance system yet called Radar 2, which will have Electronic Attack capabilities. It is likely that the Italians will chose Radar 2 for their aircraft upgrade.

As part of their Tornado replacement programme, Germany is looking to buy aircraft with a EA capability but appears likely to pick the EF-18G Growler. Airbus did pitch Eurofighters with Radar 2 for this role. Germany also appears to be going to buy F-18s that the US will certify to carry the B61 nuclear bomb.

Eurofighter export customers will have their pick of any of the three radar systems.

Is there a significant difference between Radar 0 and Radar 1, or is this just an excuse to allow German money to be spent on kit made in Germany? You decided.

Should the UK have decided to upgrade its aircraft to Radar 0 three or four years ago...? You decided.

Will the UK ever find the money for the Radar 2 upgrade... tbd.

And finally, is the Eurofighter consortium beginning to separate into different factions, each with an eye on their own 6th Generation fighter projects? You decide.

Thank you very much for making it clear. I will plonk my money down on radar 2 becoming the opening radar for Tempest.

[Jensy]

There's a video posted up-thread talking about 'why Germany won't buy the Super Rhino'. Quite a bit of wide speculation as German politics is a very complex beast.

I think that was me that posted it.

There were reports in the press the other day about the MoD and industry pleading with the Treasury to bring forward investment in Tempest and other projects like FSS to protect industry and jobs. Looks like the Treasury is yet to be convinced. Meanwhile...the Germans are pushing forward with plans to safeguard their combat air capability and avionics business and the French have chucked 15bn EUR at theirs....

I've got an awful feeling the Treasury is going to ruin everything....just like they did with investment in armoured vehicles post cold war...

Ah yes, this one:



I have that same sinking feeling about the Treasury, especially after Sunak has spent the last few months 'making it rain'.

Combined with US pressure to buy our full 138 Lightnings there might not be any funds left for Tempest, with the RAF placated with some F-35 A models.

Without either those 48 additional Saudi Typhoons, other exports or a RAF top up order, then realistically the UK's only production facility for military aircraft will shut in the next few years, for good.

Much like in shipbuilding, once those skills go, and the workforce moves on to better paid opportunities overseas, there's no chance of rebuilding them without huge cost and difficulty.

With Ben Wallace as DefSec, I don't see any willingness to support the industry or the RAF. He's a 'yes man' trained to follow orders and those orders will probably be to cut to the bone.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Radar 1 will be retro-fitted to the Germany aircraft with Radar 0, and fitted to the new Eurofighters that Germany is about to order. The Spanish will also upgrade their tranche 2 and 3 aircraft to Radar 1.

The UK is going down its own road with a more advance system yet called Radar 2, which will have Electronic Attack capabilities. It is likely that the Italians will chose Radar 2 for their aircraft upgrade.

As others have stated, already, splitting nicely as per the camps for making the nxt-gen fighter

consternation on Crewe Road if FCAS and Tempest merge, but that's an "if"

If the Japanese won't come onboard in any substantial way, the if becomes a 'when'.

Issues being the airframe need to be designed with agreed interfaces, and the airframe needs to be set against a specific requirement.

I seem to remember a programme that is being run in two parts: the systems and an agreed, overall (PYRAMID) interfacing structure and stds... the airframe "still" lying in wait?

what's the UK Gripren content?

My 40% must be based on the previous gen Gripen? as

37.5% of Typhoon

Gripen I seem to remember being 30-33% UK value

Jensy's loses"a fifth" - still not bad

[Pseudo]

what's the UK Gripren content?

Up to 36% according to the written evidence SAAB provided to the Defence Select Committee in 2012. So almost as much as the 37.42% work share on the Typhoon.

If the Japanese won't come onboard in any substantial way, the if becomes a 'when'.

It's a shame that the UK can't persuade the Saudi's to contribute to the development costs. I mean I live in Newcastle, but the Saudi's don't really need a Premier League team.

In terms of absolute percentage, yeah it's not overly 'substantial'. However, F-35 is so much larger a programme than the other two that even at less than the disputed 15% UK workshare, our involvement is worth more than 37.5% of Typhoon.

indeed. That 13%-15% could be worth a good few billion more to British industry than the UK's involvement in Typhoon and Gripen.

[ArmChairCivvy]

That 13%-15% could be worth a good few billion more to British industry than the UK's involvement in Typhoon and Gripen.

Yes, but that is driving by looking in the rear mirror (remember: objects might appear larger than... )

Somebody upstream made the comment that we have been in the confluence of the rivers called Typhoon, Gripen and JSF.
- don't think there is another 'somebody' that planned for it, to make it happen

Fewer rivers... time to start planning

[Pseudo]

That 13%-15% could be worth a good few billion more to British industry than the UK's involvement in Typhoon and Gripen.

Yes, but that is driving by looking in the rear mirror (remember: objects might appear larger than... )

Oh, absolutely. Inflation means that a pound earned twenty years ago from Typhoon or Gripen will be worth more than a pound earned in ten years time from the F-35, so the real-term value to British industry of F-35 might be a bit lower than Typhoon and Gripen, but it's still a good illustration of how much that 13%-15% actually is.

[ArmChairCivvy]

still a good illustration of how much that 13%-15% actually is

Absolutely, just like what we are doing (or Airbus UK subsidiary is doing)... we are the wing specialists.

In the defence world, being a specialist in one domain might not be a sovereign capability, even if cutting across civilian and military.

[SW1]

Based on two big assumption the 15% is really 15% or is it more like 7 or 8 and will the US actually buy anything like their full allotment so any calculation on “value” is based on what happens 20 years from now.

Far more crucial point is were and in what, the value, the IP and skill sets that is held/ maintained that is of greater importance and on that, it’s were typhoon or indeed a tempest future far exceeds anything f35 offers. The question really is does the government see the uk aviation industry as a strategic industry it wants to invest in like other countries are doing or does it simple want to buy foreign from here on in and COVID is accelerating that decision rapidly.

[ArmChairCivvy]

crucial point is were and in what, the value, the IP and skill sets that is held/ maintained [...] The question really is does the government see the uk aviation industry as a strategic industry

Exactly.

[bobp]

I think the 15 percent is for the B version.