Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
downsizer
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Re: Typhoon

Post by downsizer »

marktigger wrote:problem is in the original buys the spares packages never envisaged the amount of operational work Typhoon would now be doing remember the contracts were drawn up when peace was breaking out and we were all going to be friends and the cold war was over.
Erm no. The spares package was just bought on the cheap full stop.

QRA, FIs and a bit of BAP style action were all envisaged for Typhoon when the spares and support were purchased. It can hardly be claimed that Typhoon is operationally busy!

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Re: Typhoon

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Typhoon Gains Strength

http://www.janes.com/article/51784/typh ... -can2015d2

Article summary - Typhoon is being promoted actively in Canada. Nothing entirely revolutionary written in it though.

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Re: Typhoon

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Political Ties Tip Balance on Rafale Exports

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /27582313/

Story is mostly about Rafale's sudden export success, but there are some tidbits I'll quote out:
Responding to questions from Defense News, Gutierrez declined to discuss closure dates for the assembly lines but said plans were in place to continue Eurofighter production for a long period beyond 2018.

"It's not the right time to discuss potential closures," he said. "The final assembly lines will stay open to meet new orders, retrofits and midlife upgrades. We are planning responsibly to ensure that Eurofighter can be produced way beyond 2018."
"We must be patient. The international fighter market is a long-term business, and procurement decisions will not be made on a day-to-day basis," Gutierrez said. "In principle, we still expect to gain a market share of about 20-25 percent."

Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Malaysia, Indonesia, Belgium, Denmark, Poland and Finland are export prospects, he said, for an aircraft that counts Austria, Oman and the Saudis as foreign customers.

Industry executives said the best short-term opportunities for further sales probably lie with a Saudi top-up order for 48 or more jets and a knock-on deal for a squadron's worth of jets with Riyadh's neighbor and ally, Bahrain.

Further out is a possible Malaysian sale but a decision on rival offerings, which have included a possible leasing deal, have retreated in the last couple of years for political and economic reasons, and it will probably be 2017 or 2018 before a winner is declared, said one executive in the UK.
Justin Bronk, an air power analyst at the RUSI think tank in London, has published a report looking at Typhoon's potential to meet Europe's air power requirements, which concludes the jet is already the best air superiority fighter outside of the F-22 Raptor but is outclassed for the moment by the more mature Rafale in the air-to-ground role.

"In the Eurofighter, the European states have the most formidable non-stealth air-superiority platform in the world," Bronk said.

With the entry into service of Storm Shadow and Brimstone II missiles, on contract to the UK Royal Air Force in 2018, and with an active electronically scanned array radar in development, Typhoon capabilities "should surpass that of the Rafale in many respects," he said.

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Re: Typhoon

Post by Dahedd »

Id still love to see all of the 3rd Tranche being picked up. Twin seaters with conformal tanks. Nice long range strike to replace the Tornado properly.

That said it's still a fighter bomber. Maybe it's time the UK looked at a proper long range regional bomber. A 21st century Vulcan/Victor/Valient replacement.

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Re: Typhoon

Post by marktigger »

I would agree with picking up all our Tranch III and replacing Tornado with them. F35 is looking like it won't have the performance.

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Re: Typhoon

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marktigger wrote:I would agree with picking up all our Tranch III and replacing Tornado with them. F35 is looking like it won't have the performance.
although Typhoon was originaly designed as an air superiority fighter, its metamorphosis into multi role from inception to current date has taken an age. Mainly due to lack of committment of the user nations. At last we are (hopefully) going to see it's full potential unleashed.

F35 is still in it's very early stages of development, and it seems everyone and their dog has had a go at dismissing it already as an expensive failure. I just wish folk would look at the current aircraft such as F15/16/18, and the length of time they have been in service to get to where they are now. It is far too early to write off f35, I hope it develops as all the others have done, because it is not going to go away.

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Re: Typhoon

Post by Dahedd »

I reckon the Lightning will be a fantastic aircraft once it's up & running & I can't wait to see them over head my house when they visit Lossiemouth.

But part of me reckons/wishes they were pure FAA & the RAF would concentrate on the Typhoon (& Taranis)

Pipe dream I know.

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Re: Typhoon

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Re: Typhoon

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Dahedd wrote:
But part of me reckons/wishes they were pure FAA & the RAF would concentrate on the Typhoon (& Taranis)

Pipe dream I know.
I share the same pipe dream, especially taranis.
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Re: Typhoon

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Taranis was never going to be an RAF plane and isn't one. Its a technology demonstrator for the MOD built by BAE

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Re: Typhoon

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on the subject of more orders, would someone like Malaysia be interested in some tranche 1's that we have no plans for. The money could then be pumped back into more tranche 3's, boosting the RAF and keeping the production lines open.

Also Canada would be great for the typhoon, I hope its been pushed hard because it will need to be to win against the F35.
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Re: Typhoon

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SKB wrote:Taranis was never going to be an RAF plane and isn't one. Its a technology demonstrator for the MOD built by BAE
True, and whatever will come out of the Taranis project is very unclear. In fact BAE have been unusualy reticent in regards to the programme, and I have high hopes for it. That is if government stumps up a bit of cash for it's development, something which will not be popular with the anti BAE lobby.

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Re: Typhoon

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shark bait wrote:on the subject of more orders, would someone like Malaysia be interested in some tranche 1's that we have no plans for. The money could then be pumped back into more tranche 3's, boosting the RAF and keeping the production lines open.

Also Canada would be great for the typhoon, I hope its been pushed hard because it will need to be to win against the F35.
At the moment I think it is Rafale that we need to be more concerned about in regards to any order from Canada.

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Re: Typhoon

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jonas wrote:
SKB wrote:Taranis was never going to be an RAF plane and isn't one. Its a technology demonstrator for the MOD built by BAE
True, and whatever will come out of the Taranis project is very unclear. In fact BAE have been unusualy reticent in regards to the programme, and I have high hopes for it. That is if government stumps up a bit of cash for it's development, something which will not be popular with the anti BAE lobby.
Taranis is feeding into FCAS, the joint project with France aimed at the - sigh - 2030s. So...

And that is before it eventually dies an uncerimonious death like TELEMOS did. A possibility not to be forgotten.
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Re: Typhoon

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SKB wrote:Taranis was never going to be an RAF plane and isn't one. Its a technology demonstrator for the MOD built by BAE
yeah I understand that, hence the pipe dream bit. Even though its a demonstrator there's nothing wrong with developing a bit further and actually using it. Amazingly BAE produced the demonstrator for rather cheap too.
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Re: Typhoon

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Gabriele wrote: And that is before it eventually dies an uncerimonious death like TELEMOS did. A possibility not to be forgotten.
yes, that is my exact concern. All the marketing made it look real promising, it feels too good to let it fall into vapourware
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Re: Typhoon

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Re: Typhoon

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Gabriele wrote:
jonas wrote:
SKB wrote:Taranis was never going to be an RAF plane and isn't one. Its a technology demonstrator for the MOD built by BAE
True, and whatever will come out of the Taranis project is very unclear. In fact BAE have been unusualy reticent in regards to the programme, and I have high hopes for it. That is if government stumps up a bit of cash for it's development, something which will not be popular with the anti BAE lobby.
Taranis is feeding into FCAS, the joint project with France aimed at the - sigh - 2030s. So...

And that is before it eventually dies an uncerimonious death like TELEMOS did. A possibility not to be forgotten.
One of the few times I have to disagree with you Gabriele. I think BAE will carry on with the development of Taranis. Perhaps even behind closed doors. They are not so stupid (really) as to rely on any joint projects with France. I think (hopefully) they have learned from past experience not to rely on our Gallic allies.

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Re: Typhoon

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Typhoon painted in the colours of a 'Battle Of Britain' era Hurricane.

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Re: Typhoon

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Typhoon needs to be seen by the RAF as its primary platform for the long term not as an interim platform till something else turns up. It has been starved of development funds whilst tornado has had money poured into it.

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Re: Typhoon

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jonas wrote:
marktigger wrote:I would agree with picking up all our Tranch III and replacing Tornado with them. F35 is looking like it won't have the performance.
although Typhoon was originaly designed as an air superiority fighter, its metamorphosis into multi role from inception to current date has taken an age. Mainly due to lack of committment of the user nations. At last we are (hopefully) going to see it's full potential unleashed.

F35 is still in it's very early stages of development, and it seems everyone and their dog has had a go at dismissing it already as an expensive failure. I just wish folk would look at the current aircraft such as F15/16/18, and the length of time they have been in service to get to where they are now. It is far too early to write off f35, I hope it develops as all the others have done, because it is not going to go away.
No it is to early to write the F35 off but it will be interesting to see how it performs in serious operations not on controlled trials.

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Re: Typhoon

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marktigger wrote:Typhoon needs to be seen by the RAF as its primary platform for the long term not as an interim platform till something else turns up. It has been starved of development funds whilst tornado has had money poured into it.

Typhoon, starved of funds...? Uhm. I'm sure it would have benefitted by the quicker throwing of hundreds of millions more for speeding up weapons integration, but seriously. Starved of funds, with all the money it has swallowed up...? I can see dozens of other elements of the force crying in the corner.
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Re: Typhoon

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really compare how much has been poured into tornado in the same time frame. And then look at how much was put into Jaguar and Buccaneer after Tornado was introduced!

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Re: Typhoon

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marktigger wrote:really compare how much has been poured into tornado in the same time frame. And then look at how much was put into Jaguar and Buccaneer after Tornado was introduced!
Out of memory and a quick history scan, might be missing several pieces still, but Typhoon's build up so far has included expenditure and committed budgets as follows:

76 million for the Austere AG on Tranche 1,
403 million for the various software upgrades to open up AG, (NAO value, not clear if it includes Paveway IV integration costs)
172 million for the integration of Storm Shadow
124 / 130 million in the budget for Meteor integration,
Some 77 or more million for Brimstone,
Some 72 million (or more, not clear) for the "de-risking" of AESA radar
And the 1.7 million common launcher first contract in the last few days.

British side only. 17 billion procurement cost and all support costs not included.

"Starved of funds" is pretty bold. Would have been nice to be able to place proper integration contracts earlier, but it wasn't possible due to the criminal way the Eurofighter consortium works until an agreement was found to open the way. But as for the money committed, they are not small sums at all.
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Re: Typhoon

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Gabriele wrote:
marktigger wrote:really compare how much has been poured into tornado in the same time frame. And then look at how much was put into Jaguar and Buccaneer after Tornado was introduced!
Out of memory and a quick history scan, might be missing several pieces still, but Typhoon's build up so far has included expenditure and committed budgets as follows:

76 million for the Austere AG on Tranche 1,
403 million for the various software upgrades to open up AG, (NAO value, not clear if it includes Paveway IV integration costs)
172 million for the integration of Storm Shadow
124 / 130 million in the budget for Meteor integration,
Some 77 or more million for Brimstone,
Some 72 million (or more, not clear) for the "de-risking" of AESA radar
And the 1.7 million common launcher first contract in the last few days.

British side only. 17 billion procurement cost and all support costs not included.

"Starved of funds" is pretty bold. Would have been nice to be able to place proper integration contracts earlier, but it wasn't possible due to the criminal way the Eurofighter consortium works until an agreement was found to open the way. But as for the money committed, they are not small sums at all.
That accounts for less than 1bn on upgrades over a decade, which doesn't seem a particularly large amount for a brand new aircraft with only initial operating capabilities. Obviously, the slow pace of upgrades was driven by the unwillingness of the partner nations to fund them, but I can't help but feel that the RAF were more willing to keep the air-to-ground capabilities as spartan as possible and rely on Tornado for as long as possible because a fully air-to-ground capable Typhoon would undermine the case for a full order of F-35's.

Now we've spent millions keeping Tornado in operation beyond its ideal lifespan and are no doubt spending more than would otherwise have been necessary for faster Brimstone and Storm Shadow integration because the F-35 is still years away from operational RAF service and Tornado can't keep going.

When I put it that way it seems a lot like the usual MoD story of defence politics trumping operational needs resulting in increased costs.

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