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Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 16 Jan 2019, 22:39

Timmymagic wrote:The UK FMS for Amraam C-5 was for $144m in 2004. That doesn't get you many missiles at all with a 10 year servicing contract. 120 Missiles is probably the max that could have bought, it may be significantly less.
Deagel gives per piece price as $1.5m
SW1 wrote:productions contracts for meteor with all partner nations was signed in 2012 so I would suspect stocks have been building up
France took 16 or 18 last year, just as an example (the Swedes were the first to put it into service, with a radar upgrade to make use of the range)
downsizer wrote:Pretty sure both QRA jets will always be armed.
Sarcasm is a difficult art; perhaps I should avoid it?
- translation in this case: to make the C-5s last (and cover all QRAs) out to 2030 might need bending backwards and touching the ground with the nose... and might still not do the trick

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 17 Jan 2019, 00:22

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Lord Jim wrote: have the missiles and the aircraft is capable? Like their deciding to reintroduce coastal RBS-15 missile batteries, I wouldn't be surprised if they are looking at actually bringing this capability on line.


Were that the case, then the industry sources reporting that the Thais paid for the integration would be wrong
- the previous generations, all the way from Lansen, had that capability (over the years missiles have obviously changed)

The coastal batteries story is similar: they had all the kit ordered and paid, decided to "save" and only kept the missiles, binned all the rest (or put examples into museums)... a painful road back. - Luckily other countries had been ordering all the accessories (to use RBS-15 from land) and the production line was still there.
- similar story with the CV90 mortars (BAE recently delivered a much toned-down version... after the base vehicles had spent 20 years in storage)

The Swedish Air Force received its first RBS-15F missile in 1887 these being the air launched version of the RBS-15 Mk1 introduced into service with the Swedish Navy in 1985. These will be replaced by the RBS-15F-ER in the early 2020s, this being a development of the RBS-15 MK3+. The 12 aircraft obtained by Thailand were already wired etc for the weapon during manufacture as Maritime Strike was one of the primary roles for the JAS-39. Now whether the Swedish Air Force decided in the 1990s that the threat from the Soviet Baltic Fleet had gone away and so they no linger the train with the weapon I do not know, but they still have them in storage and as I mentioned above are looking at introducing an improved version in a few years time.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 17 Jan 2019, 04:49

Lord Jim wrote:are looking at introducing an improved version in a few years time.

Which was just "launched" commercially, and was also in the running for the Finnish corvettes in build (plus replacing the older version on FCAs and in shore batteries; lost out to Israeli next-gen 'Gabriel' though).

Let's look at the detail, as the ER thinking was modified; meanwhile the Swedish navy has gone over to Mk2 but both the navy and the air force will skip Mk3 (see end comment about the AF):
"Mk3 was a radical redesign resulting in what was basically a completely new missile. Following a four-year test program it was adopted by the German Navy, and shortly after that by the Poles. The Swedish Navy is still soldiering on with the MkII, and would have been happy to adopt the Mk3. However, the Swedish Air Force had other thoughts, and had a requirement for the weapon to be lighter to allow four missiles to be carried simultaneously by the upcoming 39E Gripen. The result was the RBS15 ‘Next Generation’ (still lacking an official designation, though Mk4 wouldn’t come as a surprise), which is an upgraded Mk3 with a lighter launch weight, longer range, and generally improved performance. The weapon is contracted for introduction into Swedish service for both the Navy and the Air Force during the next decade"
- now Typhoon has Martel (Martel was dictated by an export customer that deploys it also in their navy)
- the new Gripen, thanks to the modified development path I mentioned before the quote, despite being at the smaller end in size (amongst modern fighter a/c) will be able to carry 4, easily beating the 3 JSMs carried by Norway's F-35s... Norway had the unique requirement for range, to be able to defend the Norway-Spitzbergen (Svalbard) gap, and that eliminated Gripen simply due to its size (fuel/ range) despite unequalled anti-shipping fire power
... can't remember if Typhoon was even in the running (the Marte story arose later)

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby RetroSicotte » 17 Jan 2019, 08:41

Lord Jim wrote:The Swedish Air Force received its first RBS-15F missile in 1887

I beg your pardon? :p

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Pongoglo » 17 Jan 2019, 11:25

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Lord Jim wrote:- the new Gripen, thanks to the modified development path I mentioned before the quote, despite being at the smaller end in size (amongst modern fighter a/c) will be able to carry 4, easily beating the 3 JSMs carried by Norway's F-35s... Norway had the unique requirement for range, to be able to defend the Norway-Spitzbergen (Svalbard) gap, and that eliminated Gripen simply due to its size (fuel/ range) despite unequalled anti-shipping fire


Norways F35A's can only carry three JSM? JSM can easily be carried on the external pylons giving four, even on the B. In the case of the 'A' I believe it can also carry two internally for a total of six.

F35 JSM 1.jpg


External....

F35 JSM Internal.jpg


Internal...

F35B JSM.jpg


F35B :-)
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby abc123 » 17 Jan 2019, 13:36

Lord Jim wrote: Now whether the Swedish Air Force decided in the 1990s that the threat from the Soviet Baltic Fleet had gone away and so they no linger the train with the weapon I do not know, but they still have them in storage and as I mentioned above are looking at introducing an improved version in a few years time.


Yeeep. Missile strike against ( Soviet ) maritime targets was one of the most important roles of Swedish Air Force during the Cold War.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 17 Jan 2019, 21:43

Yes, II's and III's got mixed up; here is a summary from DID, along with the others I mentioned:

"The market for anti-ship missiles is a crowded one, and the distinction between anti-ship and precision land strike weapons is blurring fast. Aside from a bevy of Russian subsonic and supersonic offerings, naval buyers can choose Boeing’s GM-84 Harpoon, China’s YJ-82/C-802 Saccade, MBDA’s Exocet, Otomat, or Marte; IAI of Israel’s Gabriel/ANAM, Saab’s RBS15, and more. Despite an ongoing shift toward supersonic missiles, Kongsberg chose not to go that route. So, how do they expect to be competitive in a crowded market? The F-35 Lightning II may hold the key.

The F-35 is a fairly stealthy plane, so long as it is mostly unarmed. About five sixths of its armament capacity must be carried externally, effectively rendering it visible to radars. That has been one of the several good arguments as to why stealth development may have been a low bang-for-buck result. Australia announced external link that it was going in with Kongsberg to adapt the Joint Strike Missile to fit inside the F-35’s armament bay. We helpfully suggest that the new variant be named the JSM-III Sardine."

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 17 Jan 2019, 22:10

Does anyone think the RAF with reintroduce Maritime Strike with anything other than possibly the P-8? Is there any chance that whatever weapon is chosen to replace the Harpoon could be integrated on to the Typhoon?

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 17 Jan 2019, 22:13

Regarding the RBS-15.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 18 Jan 2019, 09:59

Lord Jim wrote:yone think the RAF with reintroduce Maritime Strike with anything other than possibly the P-8? Is there any chance that whatever weapon is chosen to replace the Harpoon could be integrated on to the Typhoon?


Harpoon was mentioned as one of the weapons the RAF would be getting with P-8, alongside Mk.54.

Zero chance of integration with Typhoon however, unless one of the Gulf countries pays for it, which Kuwait is doing with Marte-ER. Oman and Saudi seem disinterested, but it will be interesting if Qatar bites....I suspect that would be for Marte or JSM as they like new shiny things..
There was a few photo's of JSM's in front of Typhoon at airshows as a possible option for integration IF the customer was willing to pay. Realistically for the European users of Typhoon, Italy would go with Marte-ER to support Italian industry. Unless Spain, Germany and the UK decided to fund integration together (and it would be JSM) Typhoon will be waiting until FCASW c2030ish.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby RichardIC » 18 Jan 2019, 12:02

Timmymagic wrote:Harpoon was mentioned as one of the weapons the RAF would be getting with P-8, alongside Mk.54.


I'm sorry, I know this is now off-topic and should be on the P-8 thread. However my understanding was the RAF P8s would be fully equipped for Harpoon, ('cause they're identical to US Navy aircraft) but the UK had not committed to a purchase.

Happy to be corrected.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 18 Jan 2019, 13:00

Timmymagic wrote:Zero chance of integration with Typhoon however, unless one of the Gulf countries pays for it, which Kuwait is doing with Marte-ER. Oman and Saudi seem disinterested, but it will be interesting if Qatar bites....I suspect that would be for Marte or JSM as they like new shiny things..
Yeah, will not be Harpoon in those congested waters... who wants "the Iranian airliner shot down, again" scenario, just because at the time the Tomcat and that airliner taking off fro the same runway were merged into one and the same 'target' that then flew straight towards the ship
- Harpoon is not v good at filtering & selecting targets
Timmymagic wrote:Italy would go with Marte-ER to support Italian industry
and anybody wondered why they were the lead nation for the sale to Kuwait (bcz Marte was part of the rqrmnt spec)
RichardIC wrote:understanding was the RAF P8s would be fully equipped for Harpoon, ('cause they're identical to US Navy aircraft) but the UK had not committed to a purchase.

Yep, we prefer JIT for any weapons (just put the wiring in, so you can load them on, as soon as the "pizza-express delivery" USAF C-17 will have landed ;)

While I approve (for the economies made) of that kind of policy, we are basically setting ourselves up for another "Suez moment" as in:
- we know you guys went in (the briefings I don't read told me so)
- you better come out plenty quick, bcz Pr. Trump ("me") thought (in between twittering from the loo @ 7-ish in the morning) that what you've set yourselves up for is ' not a good deal, for America' ;)

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 18 Jan 2019, 20:05

Another related question, do typhoon (and soon F-35) Pilot train from Maritime Strike either in the air or in the simulators? It would be all well and good for a few crates to suddenly turn up when things go south (or north), but you have to have the skill sets to use them.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby topman » 18 Jan 2019, 20:52

A few crates?

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Caribbean » 18 Jan 2019, 22:34

topman wrote:A few crates?

WW2 slang - crate = aircraft (usually applied to bombers etc)

Apologies if you already knew that :D
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 18 Jan 2019, 23:30

topman wrote:w crates?


I think he means crates of ASM's generously loaned from our ever accommodating friends in the states..

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 19 Jan 2019, 04:26

We could install them (the missiles, not the crates) on our tankers (again) :D ... range and endurance

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 19 Jan 2019, 08:39

Sorry for the confusion, maybe I should have said Containers.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Old RN » 19 Jan 2019, 09:04

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Yeah, will not be Harpoon in those congested waters... who wants "the Iranian airliner shot down, again" scenario, just because at the time the Tomcat and that airliner taking off fro the same runway were merged into one and the same 'target' that then flew straight towards the ship
- Harpoon is not v good at filtering & selecting targets

I worry when someone tries explain how a top flight airdefence ship, operating inside a foreign nation's territorial water, engaged one of their airliner's on a standard flight path and schedule. If any "enemy" or " rogue" country did that there would be no such understanding!

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby PapaGolf » 19 Jan 2019, 09:32

Does Russia count?

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby topman » 19 Jan 2019, 11:51

Lord Jim wrote:Another related question, do typhoon (and soon F-35) Pilot train from Maritime Strike either in the air or in the simulators? It would be all well and good for a few crates to suddenly turn up when things go south (or north), but you have to have the skill sets to use them.


little use training to use a weapon that you have no plans to buy.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 20 Jan 2019, 09:42

topman wrote:ttle use training to use a weapon that you have no plans to buy.


Amidst all the loss of capability over the years thats one thing we forget, is there any martitime strike experience left in the RAF (or FAA for that matter)? It was build up over years with Buccaneer, then Tornado, but has been gone a very, very long time.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 20 Jan 2019, 09:57

Timmymagic wrote: has been gone a very, very long time.


True, but sinking ships seems to be the tertiary capability of RN ships, too :( (would put it one further down, after ASW, AAW and projecting onto land... but my Latin runs short :cry: at that point).

A leading in remark to: if you train to strike mobile AD installations with Spear3 (JSASM was modified to be able to strike objects moving at 30 km/mls/ nm speed; can't now remember which metric applied) so what's the big deal in doing the same against ships? From the training point of view.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 21 Jan 2019, 19:03

Sort of depends where the ships are. Out at sea you have no terrain to work with, but point taken regarding operations in coastal waters. Do we still train to get right down in the weeds so to speak or is that another skill set our pilots have lost? Staying under the radar horizon was always key to Anti-ship operations, especially now most Russian (and Chinese) vessels are basically mobile double digit SAM batteries, with the naval equivalent of the S-300 or S-400.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 21 Jan 2019, 19:12

Lord Jim wrote:Do we still train to get right down in the weeds so to speak or is that another skill set our pilots have lost? Staying under the radar horizon was always key to Anti-ship operations, especially now most Russian (and Chinese) vessels are basically mobile double digit SAM batteries, with the naval equivalent of the S-300 or S-4


Exactly, do we train for pop-up attacks, do the radars have the modes necessary on Typhoon, let alone do we have the weaponry, tactics, planning and co-ordination. I suspect its all been lost.


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