Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

[ArmChairCivvy]

I thought Germany secured the Austria deal?

Indeed, and the bribery investigation around it only kicked off quite recently.

[Smokey]

Indeed, and the bribery investigation around it only kicked off quite recently.

It wasn't bribery, it was Anschluss!

[RetroSicotte]

As someone said, one in the hand is worth two in the bush. I suspect this may have been the case here.

Either that or the Saudi's are "okay" with this, knowing Qatar isn't a particular threat with such a strange fleet and their big lack of pilots.

I've been suspecting for a while that the Saudi batch 2 has come and gone in possibility. But then I never knew anything about Qatar getting on board, so there you go.

[Defiance]

Will this jeopardise a future KSA order?

A bird in the hand and all that....

Am I right in saying that this would be the third export deal decided by the UK/BAE (Oman, KSA and now Qatar, assuming it goes through ok)? And the only other partner to secure a sale is Italy (Kuwait)?

Are the German and Italian partners not pulling their weight in getting orders? Or has it been a strategic decision that the UK and Italians have taken the lead for pushing for the orders?

Different Eurofighter partners have different areas of responsibility globally. Germany masterminded the India bid (to India's confusion) and I think are leading a pitch for Poland.

BAE broadly has responsibility for the middle East but I believed it was identified Italy having greater pull in Kuwait so things were shifted.

[dmereifield]

Will this jeopardise a future KSA order?

A bird in the hand and all that....

Am I right in saying that this would be the third export deal decided by the UK/BAE (Oman, KSA and now Qatar, assuming it goes through ok)? And the only other partner to secure a sale is Italy (Kuwait)?

Are the German and Italian partners not pulling their weight in getting orders? Or has it been a strategic decision that the UK and Italians have taken the lead for pushing for the orders?

Different Eurofighter partners have different areas of responsibility globally. Germany masterminded the India bid (to India's confusion) and I think are leading a pitch for Poland.

BAE broadly has responsibility for the middle East but I believed it was identified Italy having greater pull in Kuwait so things were shifted.

Thanks for info. Why Germany over the UK for the India bid? Seems a little odd. Do you think the Poland bid will be successful?

[RetroSicotte]

Poland is almost certainly a non-starter. Their budget is very peculiar in how they approach it. They either want practical and cheap, or whole hog. Effectively, from people involved in the Polish military I speak to regularly elsewhere, it's either upgraded F-16 or full on F-35. Nothing else is being seriously considered, so far as they know.

[dmereifield]

Thanks. So aside from the possible Saudi follow on order, are there any other realistic orders in the offing?

[dmereifield]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... boost-bae/

According to the DT, the deal may be fully worked up and signed off in about a month....

[RetroSicotte]

Thanks. So aside from the possible Saudi follow on order, are there any other realistic orders in the offing?

Bahrain is a possibility, they tend to go along with the Saudis, and in the past it was hinted that the Saudi's might even have funded it for them. It wouldn't be a large one, 12 at most like Oman or Austria.

Belgium has a vague possibility, however I most expect it to go F-35 or for some form of unusual French approach to swing them in, given how close they are.

Outside of that, there are no real realistic ones. Far East is inconsistent and not looking for that sort of high end, and being outside out sphere of influence. Much of Eastern Europe prefers Gripen type. It's why the regrettable sales to the Middle East are so important for the UK Aerospace industry, because the UK really doesn't have a lot of possibility outside of there for meaningful orders. (Not helped by the Government being wholly uninterested in helping change that...)

[ArmChairCivvy]

Far East is inconsistent and not looking for that sort of high end

Indonesia went for "eastern" alternative and Malaysia switched the requirement from hi-end to surveillance and COIN

[indeid]

The benefit is usually from support and enhancement contracts that will last decades after the final delivery. That's where the long term and big money is for the contractor.

[Defiance]

Dassault sent a generic letter in response to the Belgium RFGP compared to full responses by UK/USA. Belgium had specific answers and Dassault did not provide them and the BAC don't have the time to piss around with getting half the story, they're on the clock.

For me it's going to be F-35 with Typhoon being the dark horse.

[RichardIC]

Defense-Aerospace editorials can have a a real snidey side to them where the UK is concerned, but I'm afraid I know where they're coming from with this:

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... hoons.html

... it cannot be excluded that Qatar might have cooked up this unexpected and unanticipated deal – which comes just a few weeks after it was ostracized by the Gulf Cooperation Council – simply to show that it has another helpful ally, the United Kingdom, willing to arm it in addition to France and the United States.
If this was the goal, it is not impossible that this deal will fade away before a contract is signed and a down payment made.

[topman]

Its probably because it's taken them by surprise. Its arrogant really, it assumes that because they've not heard of it it must have come out of the blue.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Its arrogant really, it assumes that because they've not heard of it it must

I agree. The one good thing about internet becoming the dominant media (for defence publications, which in the expensive paper format have been not much more than megaphones for the major companies active in the field) is that it is easy to drop any that display the said arrogance. The field and choice within it is now mind-boggling
- the latest I subscribed to asked if I agree to be contacted by Gvmnt officials! Hmmm, megaphones funded by...

[Ron5]

That a chauvinistic French site so if Rafale is not chosen there must be a reason other than their jet is not as good. They hate the F-35 even worse than Typhoon. Write all kinds of rubbish.

[ArmChairCivvy]

They hate the F-35 even worse than Typhoon

Because it's better... and hence even more dangerous to Rafale (that lately has been selling to places the US does not - as for now - want to release the f-35 to).

[Timmymagic]

AE broadly has responsibility for the middle East but I believed it was identified Italy having greater pull in Kuwait so things were shifted.

All true. Never quite worked out the Italy and Kuwait connection. Always thought the UK had more clout, the Italians weren't that active in 91...

But the Germans buggered up India, as they did with Switzerland. And as to Austria? Selling some surplus T1 wasn't that hard with the links between Germany and Austria, let alone the arguments over running costs and corruption. In retrospect you have to wonder if the UK and Italy would have been better off without Germany and Spain.

[sunstersun]

AE broadly has responsibility for the middle East but I believed it was identified Italy having greater pull in Kuwait so things were shifted.

All true. Never quite worked out the Italy and Kuwait connection. Always thought the UK had more clout, the Italians weren't that active in 91...

But the Germans buggered up India, as they did with Switzerland. And as to Austria? Selling some surplus T1 wasn't that hard with the links between Germany and Austria, let alone the arguments over running costs and corruption. In retrospect you have to wonder if the UK and Italy would have been better off without Germany and Spain.

Could you explain how Germany buggered up India?

[Defiance]

Could you explain how Germany buggered up India?

Scuttlebutt was while they were talking to India, India wanted to be speaking with us, presumably because we had a fairly solid relationship with them through HAL and understood how they conduct business.

Not a whole lot can be done when the French are suppressing acquisition costs however.

[dmereifield]

Why were Germany leading on the sale in the first place?

[topman]

It all got divied up, so no one felt left out and they all got a bag of sweeties to take home.

[Defiance]

^^^^ pretty much.

The difficulty with the Germans is that defence procurement is MASSIVELY about buying political relationships (ref. Qatar), if you buy a political relationship with Germany you get a strong economic partner but the majority want something more than that.

[ArmChairCivvy]

I wonder about the rationale there as Italy has kept tightly to A2A specs (Tornados and JSFs for other things)?

you have to wonder if the UK and Italy would have been better off without

all got a bag of sweeties to take home.

except that this sort of "democracy" left most of the sweeties dangling in the shop window.

[Timmymagic]

Why were Germany leading on the sale in the first place?

The correct divvying up would have been Spain leading in South America, apart from Argentina and Brazil where the UK would lead. Italy leading in Europe apart from Austria, and the UK doing everywhere else. The Germans would lead on Austria only...