Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

[Defiance]

If you want a nice tagline, the ambition is to get Typhoon to be as cheap to run as an F-16.

[Timmymagic]

- Typhoon total availability enterprise, or Tytan, the new, 10-year arrangement between the RAF and industry partners BAE Systems and Leonardo is expected to reduce the Typhoon's per-hour operating cost by 30-40%.

I know decent programme management can make a difference, but savings of 30-40% can only mean there was some serious price gouging going along at some point. Better ordering and stock control can make a difference as well, but not that much. I'm surprised the other operators (in Europe at least) haven't got aboard this if the savings really are going to be in that magnitude.

[Ron5]

I understood the major cost savings would be from extending periods between routine overhauls.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Yes, less ripping apart routinely, less changing of parts when no diagnostic or MTBF statistics point to the need
- still a v ambitious target

[cky7]

Tiffie news thru Flight Global:

-10 Tranche 3 Typhoons are now operational with RAF squadrons, with the service having previously taken delivery of additional examples which have been placed into temporary storage. In a further boost for the RAF's Typhoon force, defence minister Sir Michael Fallon has announced the signature of a £40 million contract which will upgrade the type's defensive aids subsystem ( BRIGHT CLOUD?) equipment over the next two years

Best UK defence news I've heard for a while (have actually had to cut back on how closely I follow things cos I find it too depressing usually!). Having a top class DAS system (even better than the excellent SPECTRE - possible I guess as I've heard some really good things about gripen's capabilities in this area and BAE could well be involved in that?) would really help improve one of tiffys few weaknesses.

Now if only they'd hurry the AESA along with the uk/Japanese AESA meteor too, go for ej 2x0 so even after all future upgrades tiffy still destroys all comers high and fast and keeps her TWR, could even add TVC while we're at it! Perhaps the cheap AMK might be better bet? Either/or will do me! All weapons and currently planned upgrades too. Hell why not even look into something like this - https://hushkit.net/2013/12/16/silent-t ... n-concept/ , this one is pure fan boy I know but I'd like to see if it's possible or worthwhile.

Will never happen with the idiots we got running things but imagine that. We'd have a genuine world beating capability, which if operated alongside the f35, as seems to be the plan, would be a match or possibly more for even the raptor! Imagine the influence that would buy you in coalitions and even everyday inferntiional influence garnering. One hell of a lot more than throwing .7%of our GDP away to the turd world ever will!!

[ArmChairCivvy]

( BRIGHT CLOUD?)

That was my addition (IN CAPITALS, as some news on that front are to be expected... £40m is not a lot, though?)

even better than the excellent SPECTRE

We do not know; the Saudis are on the Eurofighter Steering Committee, and it has been reported that they asked for SPECTRE to be fitted... I wonder why; and wonder about the French response - if such a thing ever moved to a request stage)

[cky7]

That was my addition (IN CAPITALS, as some news on that front are to be expected... £40m is not a lot, though?)

Aye, had guessed that's what you meant and liked the thinking, made sense to me. Like you say unfortunately £40m doesn't seem quite enough to get something at SPECTRE level (wasn't it something crazy like a third of rafale development cost?). Trouble is I guess there's virtually no unclassified info on these sort of things so it's all here say. What very little I have over heard online (i know, not a great source, but all that's available to me) on bright cloud has been really positive though.

We do not know; the Saudis are on the Eurofighter Steering Committee, and it has been reported that they asked for SPECTRE to be fitted... I wonder why; and wonder about the French response - if such a thing ever moved to a request stage)

Hadn't heard that. Like you say I'd love to have heard the French response. Would imagine it would be no way Jose (or you must be hammered Mohammed) though! From what I've heard DASS, which I guess the saudi's have, is a long way behind SPECTRE or anything we've had on the table officially in typhoon. Sort of born out by the French going into Libya without growlers, which we wouldn't let tiffies do (though to be fair the French are little less risk averse than we are on this front). Still rafale didn't have any problems nd apparently excelled. The French are supposedly very good at EW/ECM but surely BAE could provide something at least as good for tiffy with the right financial backing (JSF experience?)? Would really make a big difference to typhoon and help keep it relevant longer down the road.

[Tinman]

That was my addition (IN CAPITALS, as some news on that front are to be expected... £40m is not a lot, though?)

Aye, had guessed that's what you meant and liked the thinking, made sense to me. Like you say unfortunately £40m doesn't seem quite enough to get something at SPECTRE level (wasn't it something crazy like a third of rafale development cost?). Trouble is I guess there's virtually no unclassified info on these sort of things so it's all here say. What very little I have over heard online (i know, not a great source, but all that's available to me) on bright cloud has been really positive though.

We do not know; the Saudis are on the Eurofighter Steering Committee, and it has been reported that they asked for SPECTRE to be fitted... I wonder why; and wonder about the French response - if such a thing ever moved to a request stage)

Hadn't heard that. Like you say I'd love to have heard the French response. Would imagine it would be no way Jose (or you must be hammered Mohammed) though! From what I've heard DASS, which I guess the saudi's have, is a long way behind SPECTRE or anything we've had on the table officially in typhoon. Sort of born out by the French going into Libya without growlers, which we wouldn't let tiffies do (though to be fair the French are little less risk averse than we are on this front). Still rafale didn't have any problems nd apparently excelled. The French are supposedly very good at EW/ECM but surely BAE could provide something at least as good for tiffy with the right financial backing (JSF experience?)? Would really make a big difference to typhoon and help keep it relevant longer down the road.

We keep out DASS and EW capabilities close to our chests, the french flog them to anyone.

Your comments on the Typhoon on OP ELEMY are so far from the truth.

[ArmChairCivvy]

something at SPECTRE level (wasn't it something crazy like a third of rafale development cost?).

Don't know, but the initial development cost for Bright Cloud was 1.5 bn euros (and I am sure it is not standing still).

[cky7]

Tinman,

I'm guessing you're talking about classified information? In which case fair enough I have no choice but to take your word for it as I have absolutely no access to anything not in public

Is there Any point asking if typhoons did operate without growler support or rafales rafales didn't (both contrary to anythIng I've read - I know that doesn't make it fact!)?

ACC,

Aye am sure we're doing everything possible to keep improving and as I said I've heard nothing but positives on Brightcloud and do think if this is what the article you originally linked meant it's fantastic news. I've never had any doubts over our technical capabilities, just whether there is the money to make to put our brains products into service. With tinman's comments above perhaps my worries over UK EW/ECM capabilities are unfounded. Really wish there was more in the public sphere I could read about. All I get mostly is quotes and snippets, which unfortunately have given me the impression (wrongly perhaps it seems) tiffy lags behind rafale and gripen here.

[Defiance]

The French are supposedly very good at EW/ECM but surely BAE could provide something at least as good for tiffy with the right financial backing (JSF experience?)? Would really make a big difference to typhoon and help keep it relevant longer down the road.

That'd be a BAE Inc job rather than Plc. technological flowthrough between the units does not happen when it comes to things like that.

[PAUL MARSAY]

heard on another site that the typhoon sqdns are going from 7x12 to 8x 10 due to increase of airframe availability , how does going from 84 airframes to 80 airframes equate to an INCREASE in airframe availability ? Iwould have thought it would need to be 9x10 to be an increase .

[ArmChairCivvy]

7x12 to 8x 10

If they can more readily be rolled in from the central pool, then each Sq. would only need to have 10, not 12 on site
- a bit of guess work involved in this one, but can't really see any other way for that statement to hold

[MRCA]

Sqn strengths on a/c are notional. Fleet management is just that, sqns are people. For example Sqn A need to have 16 combat ready crews, that requires a numbers of hours to be flown each month/year to achieve that status. So say your Sqn has a paper strength of 12 jets that may mean day to day you have 6-8 jets to fly allowing you to meet your requirement for 16 combat ready crews, however in future it may be you only need 10 jets to have 6-8 available to achieve your required trained establishment or you could used more simulator hours etc etc. If that's the case then you could perhaps form an additional Sqn of people.

[LordJim]

It would be interesting to know what the current surge deployment numbers are for the Typhoon fleet. At a rough guess I would say it is between 20 and 25 airframes for a short duration operation, with 6 to 10 for anything longer. Then again I am always working from a conservative/pessimistic perspective.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Now it has gone up by the better availability from the central pool (worked on by the "factory" people, but the real constraint is the RAF mechanics, who still today, are not just very/ too few in number, but split between the "typhoon" and "tornado" trades
- give it a good year and it will go further up
- what did we sent t the Gulf, in the way of Tornados? 58? That is the number to work towards (though the number of sqdrns across which they were drawn together was greater then... but there was no pool, either, just deep maintenance)

[MRCA]

It isn't a/c numbers that determines how many go to war it's combat ready crews and engineers

In Gulf war 13 tornado gr sqns sent 58 a/c and in GW2, 7 tornado GR sqns sent 30 with 60 crews.

Remembering of course that typhoon also must maintain 3 24/7 qra taskings from just 5 sqns at present rising soon to 7.

[indeid]

Agree about the manning being the vital element, Typhoon is committed to UK QRA, Falklands, NATO Air Policing and SHADER. Also did the Baltic NATO Task last year too.

Engineers are in short supply everywhere and plenty more seem to be looking to leave.

[LordJim]

One of the reasons the Tornado force was cut so fast was the number of planes allocated for a surge deployment was more than halved, meaning the fleet number required to support such a requirement could be greatly reduced. WE managed 30 Tornados in GW2 because the draw down was in progress so there were still airframes and crew available. With Typhoon we should be able to match the revised Tornado numbers of a maximum of 28.

[MRCA]

I would agree, i hope this is remembered when statements are being made about what exactly 2 sqns of f35s will be able to do and deploy.

[LordJim]

Yep we will need the front line and the OCU to support a deployment of up to 24 on a single carrier. Of course if the balloon really goes up such as WWIII then like in the Falklands every serviceable airframe, plus possible USMC assets would deploy on both carriers IF both were serviceable and could be deployed. A lot depends on what level or readiness the second carrier is held at.

On a more on topic subject, is it the plan to bring the Tranche 2 Typhoons up to a common standard with the Tranche 3 airframes over time? As mentioned previously we need as big a pool as possible to be able to deploy a useful number of airframes operationally. IF there are two fleets within the fleet, ignoring the QRA Tranche 1s, it will make anything but token deployments difficult.

[Defiance]

As common as possible, structural limits permitting.

[indeid]

Yep we will need the front line and the OCU to support a deployment of up to 24 on a single carrier. Of course if the balloon really goes up such as WWIII then like in the Falklands every serviceable airframe, plus possible USMC assets would deploy on both carriers IF both were serviceable and could be deployed. A lot depends on what level or readiness the second carrier is held at.

On a more on topic subject, is it the plan to bring the Tranche 2 Typhoons up to a common standard with the Tranche 3 airframes over time? As mentioned previously we need as big a pool as possible to be able to deploy a useful number of airframes operationally. IF there are two fleets within the fleet, ignoring the QRA Tranche 1s, it will make anything but token deployments difficult.

I suppose it will depend what the deployment is for. Even during a peer/near peer conflict you could manage fleets within fleets, not every task will need a full up 'war goer'. This issue will be bigger if different variants/fits aren't interchangeable for pilots or engineers due to them needing different training.

Although you will always choose the GTI version of it is available!

[dmereifield]

Qatar singed LOI with UK to buy 24 Typhoon fighter jets....

[ArmChairCivvy]

They are buying friends in all quarters - nothing wrong with that.

Now, about this joint facility, proposed to be based in Saudi, for deep maintenance of all Gulf Region Tiffies... and make the cost of ownership (of even split fleets) palatable