Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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Lord Jim
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

Sound idea if the funding can be found. Consolidate the Tranche 1 there and allow the wings at Lossiemouth and Conningsby to have aircraft of roughly the same standard (eventually). I am assuming though that we are not talking extra aircraft here but creating more but smaller squadrons.

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Tempest414
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Tempest414 »

Lord Jim wrote:I am assuming though that we are not talking extra aircraft here but creating more but smaller squadrons.
No he said that the T1 QRA / aggressor sqn's would have more aircraft than the front line force to allow them to take on most of the QRA

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Ron5 »

Or find money in their existing budget. Halving their HQ staff like the Navy and laying off a few dozen AVMs would be a good start.

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Tempest414
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Tempest414 »

There is some nice video of the Swiss F-18's operating out of the old 25 sqn HAS site just put in Swiss Airforce at RAF Leeming 20/11/19

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

Tempest414 wrote:No he said that the T1 QRA / aggressor sqn's would have more aircraft than the front line force to allow them to take on most of the QRA
But there are only five Squadrons with the Tranche 2 and 3 Typhoons plus the two Tranche 1 Typhoon Squadrons. Are we going to purchase additional aircraft for the sixth T2/3 Squadron, redistribute aircraft from the existing five or take aircraft from the attrition and sustainment fleet that are in storage?

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Tempest414
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Tempest414 »

sorry I don't know but this is what he said in the latest AFM however it is odd because 7 sqn's = 84 jets plus the 18 jets on the OCU and the 4 in the Falklands comes to 106 jets then we need to add what ever 41 sqn use dose not leave many from the 140 odd jets left. as for buying more typhoons yes we could buy more jets from BAE or Spain and Italy are looking to sell older jets but this would have to come from the F-35 budget unless it was extra money to keep BAE going until tempest

Edit : with 41 sqn's 10 jets that makes 116 of 140 jets in use

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by NickC »

Mark Hewer, Leonardo’s Vice President Integrated Mission Solutions recent talk on Typhoon's EW suite, Stealth Master, March 24th

"With an up-to-the-moment, accurate and comprehensive picture of the environment, a Eurofighter pilot can make sure they don’t even come within range of potentially-dangerous radar // staying away from threats isn’t always possible, so the second core element of stealth is to make yourself hard to see. Here, the Eurofighter EW suite employs a range of electronic countermeasures that allows the aircraft to digitally hide its signature, becoming invisible to radar, or to digitally create a complex and confusing picture (noise) for a threat operator, denying them a clean targeting opportunity and preventing them from launching a missile in the first place."

As a digital system can be re-programmed/updated to counter new threats. No mention of which radar bands Stealth Master covers, K/X/S/L/VHF, presume X and maybe S?

https://www.baesystems.com/en-fi/article/stealth-master

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Tempest414 wrote:Edit : with 41 sqn's 10 jets that makes 116 of 140 jets in use
A recent FOI question received this ratio in the answer... was going to post it, but as tables become a mess, I didn't
- what I remember from it (a 2019 snap shot), not far off from the above
NickC wrote: Eurofighter EW suite employs a range of electronic countermeasures that allows the aircraft to digitally hide its signature, becoming invisible to radar, or to digitally create a complex and confusing picture (noise) for a threat operator, denying them a clean targeting opportunity and preventing them from launching a missile in the first place
Sounds like what the french have been claiming for 5+ years, SPECTRA on Rafales
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Sounds like what the french have been claiming for 5+ years, SPECTRA on Rafales
They've been claiming every Rafale deficiency is covered by SPECTRA for 15 years...some of the Rafale fan boi's even claim it is superior to F-35's...cloud cuckoo land. The fact that Eurofighter have never made a big deal about there system, the fact that it includes capabilities far beyond Rafales, like towed decoys and advanced countermeasures passes them by...

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

German newspaper Handelsblatt is claiming it is likely the GAF will order 90 Typhoon to replace their T1's. Also being reported that F/A-18E/F and EA-18G is being procured in limited numbers to replace Tornado ECR and Tornado's nuclear mission.

Good news for the UK as the UK consortium members will get c40% of the value of the deal. And in all probability the Germans will be going for the UK's preferred Captor-E Radar 2. Bad news is that the German's look like they won't proceed with the ECR variant...which could have been very interesting to the Saudi's...

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... d-growlers

Part of me hopes we make the German's release the Saudi deal as the price of our co-operation. Add in a potential Spain deal for c24 and UK suppliers will get significant amounts of work in the near future. Now if we can only persuade the MoD to order an additional 24 Tranche 3's to keep the UK line open a little longer...

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Timmymagic wrote:reported that F/A-18E/F and EA-18G is being procured in limited numbers to replace Tornado ECR and Tornado's nuclear mission.
Handelsblatt is the FT of Germany; so a serious source.
- I've believed all along that it will go this way as the other options (other than F-35 that would not match the industrial strategy) simply do not fir the required timeline
... any news of Luftwaffe observes in the Finnish trials (including both of the mentioned versions)?
Timmymagic wrote: Add in a potential Spain deal for c24
- what deal?
- are my musings about the Spanish and the Swiss being in a hot competition RE: who will be (operationally) flying the last Hornets now turning into :) humbug?

PS Internet outage ate this same post; might reappear (apologies in advance)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:- what deal?
- are my musings about the Spanish and the Swiss being in a hot competition RE: who will be (operationally) flying the last Hornets now turning into humbug?
They've been talking for a few months now on replacing a portion of their EF-18 fleet with new build Typhoon. The oldest examples to go first obviously. It was seen as as good as a done deal, particularly with the industrial angle (Airbus military won't be too well disposed to Spain following Indra being chosen as the designated partner for FCAS). Whether or not that survives the current economic position is anyones guess.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Ron5 »

A German split buy sounds a silly idea. Bet it don't happen.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

A virtual pint? Done!
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by mytilini »

Hi... new contributor, so please go easy on me please?! Re. RAF Eurofighter Typhoon; during this lockdown, I'm just watching a Forces TV documentary about the aircraft. Filmed in 2018, it shows aircraft in both Lossiemouth & Romania.
What intrigues me is that the video imaging of the aircraft, when viewed front on down into the air intake, is blurred out! This was even done to Tranche 1 aircraft, based in Romania.
Question is, can anyone knowledgable explain why please? Recent 2020 footage doesn't blur out this area at all. Any ideas as to what bit of kit the RAF didn't want us to see please? Seems an unusual area to need to blur out, so looking forward to reading what you know... cheers & thanks!

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by RetroSicotte »

mytilini wrote:Hi... new contributor, so please go easy on me please?! Re. RAF Eurofighter Typhoon; during this lockdown, I'm just watching a Forces TV documentary about the aircraft. Filmed in 2018, it shows aircraft in both Lossiemouth & Romania.
What intrigues me is that the video imaging of the aircraft, when viewed front on down into the air intake, is blurred out! This was even done to Tranche 1 aircraft, based in Romania.
Question is, can anyone knowledgable explain why please? Recent 2020 footage doesn't blur out this area at all. Any ideas as to what bit of kit the RAF didn't want us to see please? Seems an unusual area to need to blur out, so looking forward to reading what you know... cheers & thanks!
Just an educated guess, but back then, S-Curves on the engines were a much less reported thing about whether it had it or not. Lots of arguments, "Does it have S-Curves?" These reduce frontal RCS.

These days, it's become common knowledge over time that it does, so the OPSEC was likely relaxed since it was kinda pointless after a while.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by mytilini »

Hi - thanks for this. I was unaware there was a debate about the subject! I'd seen gawd knows how many photos & videos before and after this period of censorship, which didn't have any such pixellating; strange that it came in for such a short time only! I guess MOD would've been the ones asking Forces TV to blur their images then?

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Jensy
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Jensy »

Indication that Eurofighter might be out in the cold for the German Tornado replacement:

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... placement/
According to Der Spiegel, Kramp-Karrenbauer sent U.S. Defense Secretary Mark Esper an email last week detailing her ministry’s wish to buy F-18s not only for the atomic mission but also for the electronic warfare role.

That reported promise stung Eurofighter advocates — even those who might begrudgingly accept an American product for the nuclear mission — because Airbus has plans for a souped-up jamming plane that it wants to see in Germany’s inventory.
Find it very hard to believe that the Luftwaffe was ever going to be buying the previously suggested split buy of:

- 45 F-18s (E/G for the nuke and EW role),
- another 30+ Typhoons (Tranche 1 replacements),
- plus potentially 30-60 further Typhoons (enhanced version).

After all this, will they still be going ahead with funding the FCAS with France and Spain? With none of the above certified for the B61 mod-12.

Amazing the lengths they're willing to go to avoid buying F-35. It would be amusing if FCAS partner, Spain eventually buys Lightnings for Juan Carlos, whilst the Germans buy a world-class carrier aircraft to replace a medium bomber.

I dearly hope we don't end up merging Tempest unless it's just with France. Otherwise we'll end up with a repeat of 90s Eurofighter development hell.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Jensy wrote:buy a world-class carrier aircraft to replace a medium bomber.
My interpretation is that they not only bought a bomber, but also an escort (EW) to help it get through
- so not necessarily have a big impact on other prgrms
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Jensy
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Jensy »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Jensy wrote:buy a world-class carrier aircraft to replace a medium bomber.
My interpretation is that they not only bought a bomber, but also an escort (EW) to help it get through
- so not necessarily have a big impact on other prgrms
Ah, so it's almost a self-contained mini nuclear SEAD/strike force?

That could explain why they were simultaneously looking at an EW Typhoon as well as the Growlers.

Still makes my head hurt.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Jensy wrote:Still makes my head hurt.
I am sure that everyone in the industry has the same feeling!

My interpretation in more detail is the Block III SH's ground-hugging radar, as per B-1s a long time ago, but with its newly-introduced dual mode (of the radar, with no need to switch between the modes) makes the much smaller a/c capable of "the same" - especially as it will not not taking off from a different continent!

The EW counterparts can be flying further back and higher up, so that any suppression and jamming needed also has the needed range (rather than them, observable on IADS radars, being like a balloon in tow, giving away the location and the vector for the actual 'bomber' force)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Luftwaffe, from an almost standing start, would seem to be pushing past the other fighter competition in Europe where the SH/ Growler pairing features prominently. But who gets there first is not the point, rather it is what the German Defence ministry clarified in response to the leaked correspondence, from the link provided by Jensy:

"A ministry spokesman on Monday said Kramp-Karrenbauer’s missive to Esper was only meant to test the waters regarding America’s ability to start delivering those planes when the actual acquisition program gets underway in a few years.

A formal decision on replacing the Tornados had initially been expected by the end of March. But as the coronavirus crisis unfolded, that decision was pushed to after Easter"

So the other competition (after in-country testing of the contestants in Feb) will only lead to the FAF request for Best AND Final Offers after the phase that has now started, as per below:

The second phase of the capability assessment will make use of the data and performance values established during the HX [in-country] Challenge. Carried out with virtual simulators, this phase focuses on determining the success of a flight of four aircraft in the scenarios itemised in the call for tenders.

[BAFOs here]

The third phase will [then] demonstrate the operational efficiency of each candidate’s comprehensive HX solution by playing and simulating a long-term war game. The data obtained in the first two phases of the capability assessment will be utilised in the war game, which will feature the HX solutions as a part of Finland’s defence system.
- if Luftwaffe has not been assured that the line will be open "in a few years [time]" then it is dead-cert that the FAF will not be wargaming the SH/ Growler (note: Block II for the latter is in the offer) combo, for deliveries starting in 2025

All in all, the purpose of the HX Challenge is not to rank the candidates, but to make sure that the performance values reported in the responses to the call for tenders actually apply in the Finnish operating environment.

Typhoon is still hanging in there, but whether the planned EW version will affect the competition in any way... only those who are running it can say.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Jensy
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Jensy »

ArmChairCivvy wrote: acquisition program gets underway in a few years[/b]
:wtf:

Saying it now: the Luftwaffe is still going to end up buying F-35A, albeit only after the Finns have selected it.

The only reasoning I can see to support a F-18E/G order would be relatively rapid availablity and a chance to get Boeing to stump up (at least some of) the cash for B-61 integration.

If they're going to p*** away, at least another "few years" then the Manching production line will have moss growing on it and the workforce will either have been disbanded or have moved onto other projects, so that's the Typhoon out.

What I'm still curious about is the modest order of Typhoons that were apparently set to replace their Tranche 1's. That could keep them going till whenever the Tornado replacement decision is made.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

Who would of thought the Germans would of got into such a bind over the nuclear mission. With Boeing in such a complete mess, I’m sure there nearly giving them away.

Mind you if you read the sdsr 2020 thread many will tell you tactical nukes are pointless don’t deter anyone serious and they have to be on a submarine so perhaps the real question is why are Germany bothering at all unless of course the sdsr thread may not be entirely accurate.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Jensy wrote: ArmChairCivvy wrote:
acquisition program gets underway in a few years[/b]
:wtf:
I think the back and forth between two languages has played up here, and "acquisition program" actually means start of deliveries here.
... "A ministry spokesman on Monday said Kramp-Karrenbauer’s missive to Esper etc"
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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