Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
OldSoldier8888
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Malaysia

Re: Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

Post by OldSoldier8888 »

Here is my fleet
Boeing C17 1xGBP70m
BAe 146 4XGBP7m
BoeingP8 8XGBP170m
EADS C 295- 8 XGBP40m
F53B 16xGBP65m
Textron Scorpion 24x GBP15m
MQ9 Reaper 10 xGBP6m
Total Procurement Costs = GBP3238m

OldSoldier8888
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Malaysia

Re: Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

Post by OldSoldier8888 »

The rationale for my fleet is as follows. The additional BAe 146's and C !7 are needed to resupply areas under threat, egs, include Gibraltar and the Falklands. There is a case for low cost additional support to the small Typhoon and F35 force and I have opted for the Textron Scorpion. Two small sqadrons with 10 aircraft would be useful additions to the combat aircraft force. To further strengthen the combat force I have suggested buying another 16 F35B, enough to provide one more squadron. Maritime Patrol capability is need urgently and my choice is for top of the class Boeing P8 supplemented by some lower cost EADS C-295's.Finally for additional UAVs I suggest the purchase of ten more McP9 Reapers.

Ron5
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Re: Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

Post by Ron5 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Not practical, but feasible (!) as the manufacturer has asked for permission to recondition and export them
And the manufacturer has been refused permission.

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1911
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Re: Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

Post by 1911 »

Quite why I am up at 02:17 deliberating over a fantasy fleet when I have to work 06:30 I do not know. However, here are the results:

SDSR 2015

C17 x 11
Chinook x 60
A400m x 22
A330 x 14
BAE 147 x 4
P8 x 6
RC135W x3
Typhoon x 119
F35 B x 27
Reaper x 19
E-3D Sentry x 6
Total Procurement Costs =£3299 m
Rationale:
C17: 3 more. Get them while you can. Current fleet have been worked very hard.
P8: 6 to get started. Regenerate the capability incrementally. Capitalise on SEEDCORN. Work with partners when fleet insufficient.
Typhoon: 12 more T3 to help maintain critical mass. Mature/ing platfrom with P2E on the horizon.
F35B: 19 more for a total of 27. Get the platform into service on a solid basis and with a view to future incremental build up.
Reaper: 9 more. This is where I spent the loose change. Excellent value for a huge boost in persistant ISR plus additional timely strike.

Assuming the above and playing again for SDSR 2020:

C130J: 8 for SF use.
A400M: 2 more. In line with original planning assumption for a total buy of 25.
BAE 146: 4 more. Preserving A400M hours via contributing to intra-theatre lift.
P8: 6 more. Now a respectable total of 12.
F35B: 14 more. A third squadron. Plus bringing the existing second squadron to full operational strength.
RC135W: 1 more. A significant proportional boost to a modest but vital set of capabilities.
BAE Taranis: First 7. Assuming no longer simply a demonstrator. Incremental work towards new UK Plc. deep penetration bombing capability.
BAE Mantis: First 10. Assuming no longer a demonstrator. Improved persistence over MQ-9. Compliment and eventually replace Reaper as a homegrown MALE platform.
Total procurement cost = £3298 m
"You learn far more from negative leadership than from positive leadership. Because you learn how not to do it. And, therefore, you learn how to do it." - Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf

R686
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Joined: 28 May 2015, 02:43
Australia

Re: Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

Post by R686 »

1911 wrote:Quite why I am up at 02:17 deliberating over a fantasy fleet when I have to work 06:30 I do not know. However, here are the results:

SDSR 2015

C17 x 11
Chinook x 60
A400m x 22
A330 x 14
BAE 147 x 4
P8 x 6
RC135W x3
Typhoon x 119
F35 B x 27
Reaper x 19
E-3D Sentry x 6
Total Procurement Costs =£3299 m
Rationale:
C17: 3 more. Get them while you can. Current fleet have been worked very hard.
P8: 6 to get started. Regenerate the capability incrementally. Capitalise on SEEDCORN. Work with partners when fleet insufficient.
Typhoon: 12 more T3 to help maintain critical mass. Mature/ing platfrom with P2E on the horizon.
F35B: 19 more for a total of 27. Get the platform into service on a solid basis and with a view to future incremental build up.
Reaper: 9 more. This is where I spent the loose change. Excellent value for a huge boost in persistant ISR plus additional timely strike.

Assuming the above and playing again for SDSR 2020:

C130J: 8 for SF use.
A400M: 2 more. In line with original planning assumption for a total buy of 25.
BAE 146: 4 more. Preserving A400M hours via contributing to intra-theatre lift.
P8: 6 more. Now a respectable total of 12.
F35B: 14 more. A third squadron. Plus bringing the existing second squadron to full operational strength.
RC135W: 1 more. A significant proportional boost to a modest but vital set of capabilities.
BAE Taranis: First 7. Assuming no longer simply a demonstrator. Incremental work towards new UK Plc. deep penetration bombing capability.
BAE Mantis: First 10. Assuming no longer a demonstrator. Improved persistence over MQ-9. Compliment and eventually replace Reaper as a homegrown MALE platform.
Total procurement cost = £3298 m

looks good to me, Why RAF did not get any C17 when they had the chance is beyond me. Agree on P8 build it up slowly along with the F35 fleet, also takes care of block obsolesce in the future.

I understand why you have a joint combat aircraft between RAF/RN but truly wonder what the RAF pilots think when they go to sea (if I wanted to go to sea I would have the bloody navy )

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1911
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Re: Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

Post by 1911 »

R686 wrote: looks good to me, Why RAF did not get any C17 when they had the chance is beyond me.
I could not agree more. A classic example of MoD short-termism.

Between May 2001 and March 2015, No. 99 Squadron flew 100,000 C17 hours. Those four originals (ZZ171, ZZ172, ZZ173 & ZZ174) must have absolutley racked them up. I would be fascinated to see a breakdown as to how these hours have been distributed through the fleet. Boeing claim the C17A is designed for a 30,000 hours lifecycle, distributed over 30 years. P&W claimed in an article commemorating the 100,000th flying hour that the first six aircraft have flown 15% more hours per annum than planned. Since ZZ175 & 6 did not turn up until March and May 2008 respectively, that 15% figure must be significantly higher for the four originally leased Globemasters. Hence, my modest fantasy fleet uplift designed to take some strain with a view to maintaining good availability rates as the older fleet ages.
"You learn far more from negative leadership than from positive leadership. Because you learn how not to do it. And, therefore, you learn how to do it." - Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf

Tinman
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United Kingdom

Re: Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

Post by Tinman »

So where does the funding for the spares. pilots and ground crew come from.

Grippen is a non starter, we could have kept the Jags.

It will be the P8 or nothing.

V22 is interesting proposition, Wedgetail also, for commonality with the P8.

Tranche three Typhoons, infrastructure already in place, ground crews current on maintenance.

8 x C17, with funding to allow Parachute operations.

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shark bait
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Pitcairn Island

Re: Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

Post by shark bait »

Tinman wrote: Grippen is a non starter, we could have kept the Jags.
totally is, I cant see why it would be advantage at all, money desperately needs spending elsewhere, without adding a new fleet.
Tinman wrote: V22 is interesting proposition, Wedgetail also, for commonality with the P8.
agree again, both are tempting but I think there are more urgent matters, maybe in 5-10 years time.

Tinman wrote: Tranche three Typhoons, infrastructure already in place, ground crews current on maintenance.
I think everything possible should be done to replace the ones with threes, maybe not one for one that might be difficult to achieve, but at least some.
@LandSharkUK

Opinion3
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Re: Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

Post by Opinion3 »

What good fun!

Two periods provided for

SDSR15 SDSR20
C17 8 2 10 10
CH47 60 60 60
V22 0 2 2 4 6
A400M 22 22 22
A330 14 14 14
BAE147 4 4 4
P8 0 8 8 4 12
SeaHerc 0 0 6 6 T1 T2 T3
Typhoon 107 -12/+12 107 -24/+24 107 17 67 76
F35B 8 9 17 24 41 Retire
Airseeker 0 3 3 3
Reaper 10 10 10
Taranis 0 0 1 1
E3D 6 6 6

Shame I lost the columns..... headers are opening addition closing addition closing. I left additions blank if no additions for selection. Tiffy T1 17, T2 67, T3 76 appears at the end of Seaherc & Typhoon

Comments
C17 has proved excellent and stretching the fleet to 10 I believe was intended at one time.
V22 for carrier delivery and Special Forces
A330 annoys me immensely that this is PFI and they have not boom
P8 the obvious choice
The SeaHerc would offer more than the P8 in that it can be refueled by our A330, can drop rescue equipment and can do short take offs, which might allow more flexible basing
Tiffy. I actually believe my numbers should end up as 143 if the T1s are retired and 160 if not
Taranis. We should be developing this so this is a test aircraft.

Opinion3
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Re: Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

Post by Opinion3 »

There are a few areas I would wish to expand our capabilities. I'd like to know we have EW, CAS and LR bombing capabilities covered. The EW appears to be the weakest link. I am not sure whether the NGJ is proceeding (I think it is for the Marines) but we could do with buying into this project.

CAS - the opportunity to pick up A10s sounds like a better offer than F35Bs for this role.

Integration of weapons and gaps in capabilities (refueling boom, lack of UARRSI) are probably currently the RAF's biggest weakness, and I would prioritise these items.

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shark bait
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Pitcairn Island

Re: Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

Post by shark bait »

Opinion3 wrote:The EW appears to be the weakest link.
I completely agree, our ability to control the EM spectrum is worryingly poor. I think we would struggle operating in an environment where control over the EM spectrum isn't guaranteed. I'm hoping we have capabilities that are not well known in the public domain, but I have seen no suggestion that is the case.

We seem to have thrown all our eggs into the stealth basket, which is worrying because countermeasures can be developed faster than we can iterate aircraft design. A winning combination would stealth and extensive EW capabilities, including things like the Miniature Air Launched Decoy.

One suggestion I liked was to develop the tranche 1's into EA-18G Growler's, and work as an jamming escort, enabling the kind of tactics that where used to devastating effect in desert storm.
@LandSharkUK

Tinman
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Re: Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

Post by Tinman »

We had Tornado F3 trailed as a WW option, very successful IIRC.

Spinflight
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Re: Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

Post by Spinflight »

Link broken?

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