Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
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shark bait
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Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

Post by shark bait »

I thought I would extend my Royal Navy fantasy fleet builder. Now I have an RAF fantasy fleet builder, but this time the concept is a little different.
Build a your best fantasy fleet within the budget and then copy and paste the result here.

http://fantasyfleet.comuv.com/raf.html

Unlike my royal navy fantasy fleet I have no way of accurately estimating the operational costs of different aircraft types. For this game I have taken a different approach and set a new challenge. Instead of being limited by operational costs you are limited by procurement costs.

In this scenario the SDSR 2015 has allocated £3.3 Billion for the procurement of new aircraft over the next 5 years. Your challenge is to build the best possible fleet with these additional funds.

You are already given a fleet of aircraft to start with, the number of each aircraft is shown the the stats section, and in your fleet report.

Image

http://fantasyfleet.comuv.com/raf.html

EDIT : Site is now updated with current fleet, new aircraft, new images, special options section and increased budget!
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shark bait
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Re: Royal Air Force

Post by shark bait »

My Fleet :

P8 x 6
C295 x 14
F35 B x 20
Hawk x 15
Reaper x 8

Total Procurement Costs =£2998 m

P8 for long range MPA, C295 for short and transport. Hawk and reaper (with brimstone) to replace tornado in Iraq
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R686
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Re: Royal Air Force

Post by R686 »

shark bait wrote:My Fleet :

P8 x 6
C295 x 14
F35 B x 20
Hawk x 15
Reaper x 8

Total Procurement Costs =£2998 m

P8 for long range MPA, C295 for short and transport. Hawk and reaper (with brimstone) to replace tornado in Iraq
It's a hard one really, unless you actual know what the current forward estimates are in regards to future aircraft that have been budgeted previously, are the F35 in the current forward budget etc are you going to rebuild the Hawks as a LiF for F35 and Typhoon, too many things to rule out, 48 F35B put you over budget without thinking of MPA. But for this I will assume F35Bhas been taken care of in the current forward estimates.

We can rule out C17 as they are out of production and from what I can tell there is 1 left and I want RAAF to snap it up, P3 is out of production so we can discount that one as well. If it was a choice of C130 and C27J I would pick the C27J(Battlefield lifter and SpecOps-have used the BAE 146 by doubling it's numbers hopeing it's roughly right)

Mantis and Taranis are too far into the future, you already have Reaper maybe just the 2 to bring it up to 12 aircraft per Squadron, E3 replacement won't come around till the 2020's. 14 MRTT will keep you out of trouble for a while just need to add the boom, I would like to add another Squadron of A400M but that's for the next review see how these pan out first. The 4 Dash 8 are for coast watch

BAE 147 x 24 ( really 12 C27J Spartan)
P8 x 12
Bombadeer MPA x 4
MQ-4C Triton x 6
Reaper x 2

Total Procurement Costs =£2980 m

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Re: Royal Air Force

Post by shark bait »

R686 wrote:
It's a hard one really, unless you actual know what the current forward estimates are in regards to future aircraft that have been budgeted previously, are the F35 in the current forward budget etc are you going to rebuild the Hawks as a LiF for F35 and Typhoon, too many things to rule out, 48 F35B put you over budget without thinking of MPA. But for this I will assume F35Bhas been taken care of in the current forward estimates.

No, this idea is you have been allocated 3 billion to spend on aircraft over the next 5 years, until the next SDSR where more funds may be allocated.

Only 8 F35 should be included, as they have already been committed to by the government, the rest is up to you to buy. The idea is you are in charge of RAF procurement and have been given 3 billion to acquire new kit over the next 5 years. Past purchases and future retirements are out of your control, you just have to try and fix the problems that has caused.
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Re: Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

Post by R686 »

So let me get this right, SDSR is not supplementel money over and above the current defence budget it is the budget for new equipment out to every five years?then what's the main gate budget to be announced in 2017 for your final budget numbers for F35.

Only reason I am asking is when you place your orders for aircraft you don't go to Lockheed and say give me the price for X amount of F35 and here's your money for the lot, it's budgeted overtime that's were the forward estimates come in as you already have your budget in other words, case in point here in AusGov Intial C17 we're bought with supplemental money not already budgeted for,similar to the F18F Super Hornet buy

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Re: Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

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R686 wrote:So let me get this right, SDSR is not supplementel money over and above the current defence budget it is the budget for new equipment out to every five years?then what's the main gate budget to be announced in 2017 for your final budget numbers for F35.
Its a game. Its like going to the shop with 3 billion pounds in your back pocket to buy aircraft.
Of course in real life its budgeted over time, but its a simple little game where that doesn't matter. I also believe 3 billion is realistic for new aircraft purchases over 5 years
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Re: Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

Post by R686 »

I know it's a game and I really enjoyed the RN one but it still needs a stroke of realism in it, it's alright to make a fantasy fleet but in the small number you have of bits and pieces it's not affective,

Case in point the 24 Super Hornets for RAAF was just shy of 3 Billion AUD and from program inception to FOC was 3.5 years and that was on a hot production line and USN giving up their slots

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Re: Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

First thought on the parameters given was "how stingy"!

However, looking at the real world, not so much, after all. The following should be multiplied by 5 and then added together.
- Combat Air for FY15/16 £1.1 bn
- Air Support for the same 0.85
- Rotary Aircraft 0.45

...£ 12 bn

Here comes the rub, though. Air has been given preference and the old prgrms are nearing completion. Those figures will halve (again on yearly basis, and listed in the same order) by
- FY 19/20
- 17/18
- 17/18

That is still way above the indicated £3bn for the earliest 5 year period, though strictly speaking the 3 was for uncommitted and these figures are for committed+uncommitted.

The good news is that after the helo type rationalisation completing, for the last (3rd) category all the available funds going forward are uncommitted (will the AH decision gobble them up in one fell swoop?)
- there is also the technicality that Airseeker and Reaper are missing from the above figures (lumped under ISTAR. So, a sneaky way to get the MPA capability up and running (on a scale that would be relevant) is A. to lease the early P8s (minimal training costs as crews exist and support, incl. spares that are a capital cost, could easily be outsourced); B. Divvy up the purchase between the categories above (hiding the drones within the ISTAR lump sum... a sensitive category, not to give too much away about planned capabilities, so easily achieved); C. start calling it a joint capability (over the ground surveillance, SIGINT capability the Ozzie way...) which gives you a further category where to put some of the cost
- creative way for the defence friendly Gvmnt to declare that it was all planned at the time when they decided to gap the capability!
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

Post by shark bait »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:First thought on the parameters given was "how stingy"!
I know its stingy, but I think its realistic, we have a stingy government after all. I don't think any one is expecting a good level of funding.

The 3 Billion represents uncommitted costs, and also doesn't include any start up costs related to operating a new type so personally I think its close to what we can expect. If I can be persuaded otherwise I can increase the budget.
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Re: Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Equipment Plan 2014, pp. 26-33
- I did not check for any appendices in that doc
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

Post by Phil R »

Realities aside and just for fun, what i would like to add to the RAF for £3000m:
C17 x7
A330 MRTT x 6
P1 x 12

Total Procurement Costs =£2950 m

Plugs one gap and significantly expands two useful capabilities.

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Re: Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

Post by laurencechris »

I'm going to plump for some A-10s. Without harrier and GR 4 we have a gap in CAS. F35 is going to be few in number for CAS and too expensive. I would go for 2-3 Squadrons of them.
I'd keep tranche 1s for air defence for UK and Falklands, and I'd want a platform and capability for anti ship, it's a disgrace that we have no anti ship capability.

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Re: Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

Post by shark bait »

laurencechris wrote:I'm going to plump for some A-10s. Without harrier and GR 4 we have a gap in CAS. F35 is going to be few in number for CAS and too expensive. I would go for 2-3 Squadrons of them.
I'd keep tranche 1s for air defence for UK and Falklands, and I'd want a platform and capability for anti ship, it's a disgrace that we have no anti ship capability.
I agree, we do need something cheap for CAS.
I gave the option of hawk 200 and Textron for a cheapy role. I think the A10 would be too old for the RAF to pick up, but its a nice concept.
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Re: Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Not practical, but feasible (!) as the manufacturer has asked for permission to recondition and export them
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

Post by R686 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Not practical, but feasible (!) as the manufacturer has asked for permission to recondition and export them
Also has a secondary role as Maritime interdiction. You can put the wind up those pesky Russians

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Re: Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

Post by shark bait »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Not practical, but feasible (!) as the manufacturer has asked for permission to recondition and export them
Agreed, even reconditioned the youngest A10 will be almost 35 years old which is too much for the RAF IMO.

India are interested in developing the hawk further for attack roles, I think we should be involved. Make sure British weapons are integrated which will open up export's.
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Re: Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

Post by -Eddie- »

A couple of suggestions to improve it:

1) Show the current number of aircraft currently in the inventory, and those on order that are already funded.
2) Show the primary and secondary purpose/role of each aircraft and possibly say what differences there are between each aircraft and the listings directly above and below it. (I know this could take a bit longer).

On my first go I've gone a slightly different route
Fleet Report
C-17 x 2
P-8 x 8
Typhoon x 8
F-35B x 8
Taranis x 8
Mantis x 6

Total Procurement Costs =£3000 m

Btw the C-17 listing appeared as C172 rather than C-17 x 2

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Re: Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

Post by R686 »

-Eddie- wrote:A couple of suggestions to improve it:

1) Show the current number of aircraft currently in the inventory, and those on order that are already funded.
2) Show the primary and secondary purpose/role of each aircraft and possibly say what differences there are between each aircraft and the listings directly above and below it. (I know this could take a bit longer).

I concur, other option is give RAF a clean slate and built up fantasy fleet from scratch with a fixed procurement budget of 30 Billion (3 billion a year over 10 years) combining that with the shipping in your RN fantasy fleet.

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Re: Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

Post by shark bait »

-Eddie- wrote:A couple of suggestions to improve it:

1) Show the current number of aircraft currently in the inventory, and those on order that are already funded.

I was already toying with this idea, you pushed me to do it now thankyou!
I'm happier with I now, hope you like it too!

Site is now updated with current fleet, new aircraft, new images, special options section and increased budget!
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Re: Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

Post by shark bait »

My fleet under new rules.


C17 x 8
Chinook x 60
A400m x 22
A330 x 14
BAE 147 x 4
P8 x 5
C295 x 14
Typhoon x 107 -- + Sell and Buy new x 10
F35 B x 28
Hawk x 10
Reaper x 20
E-3D Sentry x 6
Total Procurement Costs =£3300 m

P8 for long range MPA, C295 for short and transport. Hawk and reaper (with brimstone) to replace tornado in Iraq
Tired to get more typhoon but ran out of cash
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Re: Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

Post by R686 »

for the sake of the game all aircraft are available and to be in service within the five year block. until the next bulk buy



Fleet Report
C17 x 12 (4x extra Squadron capability)
Chinook x 60 (as per current strength)
V-22 x 6 (COD & Spec Ops work)
A400m x 22 (as per current strength)
A330 x 14 (as per current strength)
BAE 147 x 10 (6x Extra short haul work)
P8 x 9 (1st tranche to rebuild MPA)
Typhoon x 107 (as per current strength)
F35 B x 20 (12x 1st Squadron other 8x OCU)
Reaper x 10 (as per current strength)
E-3D Sentry x 6 (as per current strength)
Total Procurement Costs =£3292 m

until the next bulk buy,
A400m x 6 (more to follow)
P8 x 9 ( last of the P8)
F35 B x 12 (stand up another Squadron
E-7A Wedgetail x2 (start of E3 replacement)
BAE Mantis x6
Total Procurement Costs =£3290 m

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Re: Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

Post by laurencechris »

Not enough offensive counter air here, where's the SEAD, CAS.

Clear requirement is for some low cost but high performance platforms. The Hawk is not one of these and any generation of MANPAD would render them useless. Some F18s, A10s would do, even extend the life of the GR4s, if it's good enough for the Luftwaffe it's good enough for us!

Anti ship is a clear gap that is consistently missed here and maritime strike platforms are needed...hence F18s.

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Re: Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

Post by malcrf »

I've gone for:

C17 x 10
Chinook x 60
A400m x 22
A330 x 14
BAE 147 x 4
C295 x 15
Typhoon x 107
Gripen x 50
F35 B x 8
Reaper x 20
E-3D Sentry x 6
Total Procurement Costs =£3300 m

Add 2 to the C17 fleet, C295s for MPA and Gripens (preferably with EJ200s) to try and nudge our FJ numbers in the right direction.

Really I'd like to see new-build Buccaneers with EJ200s and modern avionics for medium range attack, and a decent number of Gripens for ground attack (Typhoons to major on air superiority) and Gripens also for training.

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Re: Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

Post by shark bait »

laurencechris wrote: Clear requirement is for some low cost but high performance platforms.
Not 2 adjectives that appear in the same sentence, especially when discussing aircraft.

I do believe there is a need for a cheap CAS aircraft, although A10 and tornado are ancient and aren't worth much extra investment.

Personally I like Textron's approach, or more so HAL's ideas for a hawk upgrade. It has good potential, mature well known platform, very robust, cheap, economies of scale and low training. I can't think of any manned platform available to fill the job right now. I think it's important we still have men in the sky and drones for CAS.
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Re: Royal Air Force fantasy fleet builder

Post by marktigger »

seams to make it up by itself

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