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BAE Hawk (RAF & RN)

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BAE Hawk (RAF & RN)

Postby shark bait » 01 Jun 2015, 10:16

Thread for the BAE Hawk
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Re: BAE Hawk

Postby shark bait » 01 Jun 2015, 10:22

I have just seen the news about HAL wanting to develop a light attack version of the hawk. In the past it has been used in a light attack role by the RAF and it is still listed as being weapons capable. Now the Indians are looking at using the upgraded hawk for an attack role which I think is a great idea and is something I have often commentated on in the past. The report specifically mentioned integrating brimstone which would be great in my opinion, especially on current operations blowing up pick-up trucks and JCB's in the desert!



What are peoples thoughts on a light attack hawk?
It would be good if we can do a deal with the Indian MOD to get access to their work, perhaps in return for lower licence fees, and then produce a few attack hawks for our self. (that is forgetting we cant afford the aircraft we already have)
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Re: BAE Hawk

Postby bobp » 01 Jun 2015, 12:19

Yes I seem to remember the Hawk carrying sidewinder missiles in exercises during the cold war, the idea being they could act as air defence over the uk.

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Re: BAE Hawk (RAF)

Postby SKB » 01 Jun 2015, 12:55

Image
^ BAE Hawk T1

Introduction
The BAE Systems Hawk is a British single-engine, jet-powered advanced trainer aircraft. It was first flown at Dunsfold, Surrey, in 1974 as the Hawker Siddeley Hawk, and subsequently produced by its successor companies, British Aerospace and BAE Systems, respectively. It has been used in a training capacity and as a low-cost combat aircraft.

Operators of the Hawk include the Royal Air Force (notably the Red Arrows display team) and a considerable number of foreign military operators. The Hawk is still in production in the UK and under licence in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) with over 900 Hawks sold to 18 operators around the world.

Origins
In 1964 the Royal Air Force specified a requirement (Air Staff Target (AST) 362) for a new fast jet trainer to replace the Folland Gnat. The SEPECAT Jaguar was originally intended for this role, but it was soon realised that it would be too complex an aircraft for fast jet training and only a small number of two-seat versions were purchased. Accordingly, in 1968, Hawker Siddeley Aviation (HSA) began studies for a simpler aircraft, initially as special project (SP) 117. The design team was led by Ralph Hooper.

This project was funded by the company as a private venture, in anticipation of possible RAF interest. The design was conceived of as having tandem seating and a combat capability in addition to training, as it was felt the latter would improve export sales potential. By the end of the year HSA had submitted a proposal to the Ministry of Defence based on the design concept, and in early 1970 the RAF issued Air Staff Target (AST) 397 which formalised the requirement for new trainers of this type. The RAF selected the HS.1182 for their requirement on 1 October 1971 and the principal contract, for 175 aircraft, was signed in March 1972.

The prototype aircraft first flew on 21 August 1974. All development aircraft were built on production jigs; the program remained on time and to budget throughout. The Hawk T1 entered RAF service in late 1976. The first export Hawk 50 flew on 17 May 1976. This variant had been specifically designed for the dual-role of lightweight fighter and advanced trainer; it had a greater weapons capacity than the T.1.

More variants of the Hawk followed and common improvements to the base design typically include increased range, more powerful engines, redesigned wing and undercarriage, the addition of radar and forward-looking infrared (FLIR), GPS navigation, and night vision compatibility. Later models were manufactured with a great variety in terms of avionics fittings and system compatibility to suit the individual customer nation, cockpit functionality was often rearranged and programmed to be common to an operator's main fighter fleet to increase the Hawk's training value.

In 1981 a derivative of the Hawk was selected by the United States Navy as their new trainer aircraft. Designated the McDonnell Douglas T-45 Goshawk, the design was navalised and strengthened to withstand operating directly from the decks of carriers in addition to typical land-based duties; This T-45 entered service in 1994; initial aircraft had analogue cockpits, while later deliveries featured a digital glass cockpit. All airframes are planned to undergo avionics upgrades to a common standard.

Further development
A major competitor to the Hawk for export sales has been the Dassault/Dornier Alpha Jet; aviation expert John W. R. Taylor commented: "What Europe must avoid is the kind of wasteful competition that has the Hawker Siddeley Hawk and Dassault-Breguet/Dornier Alpha Jet battling against each other in the world market." By early 1998, a total of 734 Hawks had been sold, more than 550 of which had been to export customers. Military customers often procured the Hawk as a replacement for older aircraft such as the BAC Strikemaster, Hawker Hunter, and Douglas A-4 Skyhawk.

During the 1980s and 1990s, British Aerospace, the successor company to Hawker Siddeley, was trying to gain export sales of the variable-wing Panavia Tornado strike aircraft; however countries such as Thailand and Indonesia, whom had shown initial interest in the Tornado, concluded that the Hawk to be a more suitable and preferable aircraft for their requirements. Malaysia and Oman cancelled their arranged Tornado orders in the early 1990s, both choosing to procure the Hawk instead. Aviation authors Norman Polmar and Dana Bell stated of the Hawk: "Of the many similar designs competing for a share of the world market, the Hawk has been without equal in performance as well as sales".

On 22 December 2004, the Ministry of Defence awarded a contract to BAE Systems to develop an advanced model of the Hawk for the RAF and Royal Navy. The Hawk Mk. 128, otherwise designated as Hawk T2, replaces conventional instrumentation with a glass cockpit, to better resemble modern fighter aircraft such as the new mainstay of the RAF, the Eurofighter Typhoon. In October 2006, a £450 million contract was signed for the production of 28 Hawk 128s. The aircraft's maiden flight occurred on 27 July 2005 from BAE Systems' Warton Aerodrome.

According to BAE Systems, as of July 2012 they have sold nearly 1000 Hawks so far, with sales continuing to date. In July 2012, Australian Defence Minister Stephen Smith confirmed that Australia's fleet of Hawk Mk 127s would be upgraded to a similar configuration to the RAF's Hawk T2 as part of a major mid-life upgrade. As of 2012, the Hawk T2 is one of the competitors for the United States Air Force's T-X program to acquire a new trainer fleet.

Design
The Hawk is an advanced trainer with a two-man tandem cockpit, a low-mounted cantilever wing and is powered by a single turbofan engine. Unlike many of the previous trainers in RAF service, the Hawk was specifically designed for training. Hawker had developed the aircraft to have a high level of serviceability, as well as lower purchasing and operating costs than previous trainers like the Jet Provost. The Hawk has been praised by pilots for its agility, in particular its roll and turn handling.

The design of the fuselage included a height differential between the two seats of the cockpit; this provided generous levels of visibility for the instructor in the rear seat.[23] Each cockpit is fitted with a Martin-Baker Mk 10B zero-zero rocket-assisted ejection seat. Air is fed to the aircraft's rear-mounted Rolls-Royce Turbomeca Adour engine via intakes on each of the forward wing roots. During the aircraft's development, Hawker had worked closely with Rolls-Royce to reduce the engine's fuel consumption and to ensure a high level of reliability.

Even within the development stages, a Hawk variant was intended to also serve as a single-seat ground-attack fighter; both the trainer and fighter models were developed with the export market in mind. On single seat models, the forward cockpit area which normally houses a pilot is replaced by an electronics bay for avionics and on-board systems, including a fire control computer, multi-mode radar, laser range finder and forward-looking infra red (FLIR). Some export customers, such as Malaysia, have extensive modifications to their aircraft, including the addition of wing-tip hard point stations and an in-flight refuelling probe.

The Hawk was designed to be manoeuvrable and can reach Mach 0.88 in level flight and Mach 1.15 in a dive, thus allowing trainees to experience transonic flight before advancing to a supersonic trainer. The airframe is very durable and strong, stressed for +9 g, the normal limit in RAF service is +7.5/-4 g. A dual hydraulic system supplies power to operate systems such as the aircraft's flaps, air brakes and landing gear, together with the flight controls. A ram air turbine is fitted in front of the single tail fin to provide backup hydraulic power for the flight controls in the event of an engine failure, additionally a gas turbine auxiliary power unit is housed directly above the engine.

The Hawk is designed to carry a centreline gun pod, such as the 30 mm ADEN cannon, two under-wing pylons, and up to four hard points for fitting armaments and equipment. In RAF service, Hawks have been equipped to operate of Sidewinder air-to-air missiles. In the early 1990s, British Aerospace investigated the possibility of arming the Hawk with the Sea Eagle anti-ship missile for export customers.

United Kingdom Operation Service
The Hawk entered RAF service in April 1976, replacing the Folland Gnat and Hawker Hunter for advanced training and weapons training. The Hawk T1 was the original version used by the RAF, deliveries commencing in November 1976. The most famous users of the Hawk are the Red Arrows aerobatic team, who adopted the plane in 1979. (Red Arrows thread: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=33 )

From 1983 to 1986, some Hawks were equipped as short-range interceptor aircraft. 88 T1s were modified to carry two AIM-9L Sidewinder air-to-air missiles (AAMs) in addition to a 30 mm ADEN cannon gun pod; these aircraft were re-designated as Hawk T1A. In a wartime scenario, they would have worked in collaboration with the RAF's Tornado F3 interceptors, which would use their Foxhunter search radars and more sophisticated navigation systems to vector the Hawks against enemy targets.

The Hawk subsequently replaced the English Electric Canberra for target towing duties. The Royal Navy acquired a dozen Hawk T1/1As from the RAF; these are typically operated in a support role, often to conduct simulated combat training on board ships.

During the 1990s and 2000s, 80 Hawk T1/1A aircraft were upgraded under the Fuselage Replacement Programme (FRP) to extend their operational lifespan; sections of the centre and rear fuselage sections were entirely replaced. In 2009, the RAF began receiving the first Hawk T2, in the long term, T2 aircraft will replace the ageing T1s. Training operations on the Hawk T2 began in April 2012.

In August 2011, a Red Arrows pilot was killed when his Hawk T1 crashed following a display at the Bournemouth Air Festival, the inquest found "G-force impairment" may have caused the pilot to lose control; the Hawk T1 fleet was grounded as a precautionary measure and returned to flight status a few days later. In November 2011, the Red Arrows suffered another pilot fatality when the Martin-Baker Mk.10 ejection seat fitted to the Hawk T1 activated while the aircraft was stationary; the veteran combat pilot died on ground impact when the ejector seat parachute also failed to deploy. This resulted in the UK Ministry of Defence implementing a ban on non-essential flying in aircraft fitted with ejector seats similar to those fitted in the Hawk T1 after the death. The ban was lifted for Tornado attack jets but remained on Hawk T1, Hawk T2 and Tucano flights while the RAF reviewed evidence on those aircraft.

Specifications (Hawk 128)

Crew: 2: student, instructor
Length: 12.43 m (40 ft 9 in)
Wingspan: 9.94 m (32 ft 7 in)
Height: 3.98 m (13 ft 1 in)
Wing area: 16.70 m2 (179.64 ft2)
Empty weight: 4,480 kg (9,880 lb)
Useful load: 3,000 kg (6,600 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 9,100 kg (20,000 lb)
Powerplant: 1× Rolls-Royce Adour Mk. 951 turbofan with FADEC, 29 kN (6,500 lbf) 29 kN
Maximum speed: Mach 0.84 (1,028 km/h, 638 mph) at altitude
Range: 2,520 km (1,360 nmi, 1,565 mi)
Service ceiling: 13,565 m (44,500 ft)
Rate of climb: 47 m/s (9,300 ft/min)
Thrust/weight: 0.65
Armament: Note: all armament is optional.
1× 30 mm ADEN cannon, in centreline pod
Up to 6,800 lb (3,085 kg) of weapons on five hardpoints, including:
4× AIM-9 Sidewinder or ASRAAM on wing pylons and wingtip rails
1,500 lb (680 kg), limited to one centreline and two wing pylons (Hawk T1)

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Re: BAE Hawk

Postby bobp » 01 Jun 2015, 18:28

Thanks SKB for the update its interesting how much armament the Hawk can actually carry.

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Re: BAE Hawk

Postby Tony Williams » 02 Jun 2015, 09:28

Was it only Indonesia which bought the single-seat version (Hawk 200, IIRC)?

This was originally intended to have a pair of Aden 25 cannon installed internally, but since that gun was cancelled in the late 1990s I'm not sure what guns (if any) the Indonesian planes are fitted with.

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Re: BAE Hawk

Postby arfah » 02 Jun 2015, 10:09

...................
-<>-<>-<>-

Why this forum is pish!

1: Ineffective moderators
2: Too many fantasists ruining dedicated equipment threads with notions of what gun/mortar/artillery/missiles the equipment should have because it makes their panties moist.

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Re: BAE Hawk

Postby bobp » 28 Jun 2015, 08:13

Any news yet on a replacement for the red arrows?

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Re: BAE Hawk

Postby shark bait » 29 Jun 2015, 20:31

Tony Williams wrote:Was it only Indonesia which bought the single-seat version (Hawk 200, IIRC)?

This was originally intended to have a pair of Aden 25 cannon installed internally, but since that gun was cancelled in the late 1990s I'm not sure what guns (if any) the Indonesian planes are fitted with.


ADEN Mk 4 I think
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Re: BAE Hawk

Postby RetroSicotte » 29 Jun 2015, 21:58

I find myself surprised.

France wants a replacement for its aging Alpha Jets. The Italians are getting the M-345 in on the replacement program, why are we not throwing all the weight behind the Hawk T-2 for this? It suits the needs as a similar jet, it's completely capable and aren't France supposed to be looking at our products as much as we are to theirs anyway?

A bunch of Hawks would go a long way to making up ends on the currently lopsided deals with have with them. It stuns me that we aren't marketing the crap out of this and using our proximity for demo flights, cross training etc. Not to mention further the Anglo-Franco commonality.

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Re: BAE Hawk

Postby marktigger » 29 Jun 2015, 23:32

possibly because the Hawk is nearing its sell by date the 346 is meant to be excellent and very modern. whereas BaE have sat back on their laurels a bit which is typical and such a shame.

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Re: BAE Hawk

Postby shark bait » 29 Jun 2015, 23:34

I thought much the same think when I reading about the French requirement. The latest hawk is actually quite a modern and suitable trainer aircraft. There is even a proven model for building under licence which I'm sure the French would like.

I also think the same thing about the American trainer aircraft, we send so much money over to America , I would be nice to see it returned. I think the hawk would be suitable for them too, BAE is well established in America, hawk is operated by the navy and then there is an opportunity for joint training through hawk to the F35.

Unfortunately this government appears to be very limp wristed when is comes to pushing for defence export's. Many many great products fail to meet there potential which then increases our own ownership costs. It is spreadsheet shortsightedness again, a failure to recognise spending a bit on lobbying in the 2015 collum could reduce operating costs in the 2020 collum considerably
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Re: BAE Hawk

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 29 Jun 2015, 23:47

marktigger wrote:possibly because the Hawk is nearing its sell by date the 346 is meant to be excellent and very modern. whereas BaE have sat back on their laurels a bit which is typical and such a shame.

Without being an expert at all, it would seem to me that the two come from different eras:
-in the Hawk age, there was the transition from whatever had been the previous trainer to the two seater version of whatever would be the operational, supersonic a/c
- the 346 seems to be very "high fidelity" in the transsonic area, for its handling etc, so the current, favoured approach of maximising simulator training then becomes feasible (with many fewer two-seaters of the real war machines going on order these days)
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Re: BAE Hawk

Postby marktigger » 30 Jun 2015, 00:04

the 128 series are meant to be great the software in them makes training on them amongst the best until the 346 appeared now BaE needs to play catch up

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Re: BAE Hawk

Postby RetroSicotte » 30 Jun 2015, 00:42

marktigger wrote:possibly because the Hawk is nearing its sell by date the 346 is meant to be excellent and very modern. whereas BaE have sat back on their laurels a bit which is typical and such a shame.


The T1's, yes.

The T2's are effectively an all new aircraft in terms of training capability, one right at the forefront of current designs.

Do note, the French are interested in the 345, not the 346.

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Re: BAE Hawk

Postby marktigger » 30 Jun 2015, 07:33

I know the hawk 100 series electronically are an all new aircraft and is one of the most advanced trainers in the world but the 346 is the next step. Just like hawk was when it came out in the 70's.

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Re: BAE Hawk

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 30 Jun 2015, 09:23

RetroSicotte wrote:
marktigger wrote:possibly because the Hawk is nearing its sell by date the 346 is meant to be excellent and very modern. whereas BaE have sat back on their laurels a bit which is typical and such a shame.

[...]

Do note, the French are interested in the 345, not the 346.


The Italians are an odd lot, their aircraft evolve backwards, designation number -wise!

As someone already said, 346 set new standards in transonic training (the typical combat manoeuvring speed, exc. for the very few that can supercruise) and 345 has been improved further as for operating economics and cockpit "high fidelity" to the next step combat jet cockpit:


"Avionics are based on the latest M-346 experience and match the standards of the latest combat jets, including HOTAS controls, Head-Up Displays (HUD) and Multi-Function Displays (MFD), the real-time datalink and the Embedded Simulation system aboard the aircraft.

The M-345 HET is powered by a turbofan in the 1,600 kg / 3,500 lbs. maximum thrust range. The airframe is stressed for +7/-3,5 g"
- all this is for the overriding aim of dropping one type in the pilot training chain and saving airframe hours (and avgas!) on the precious combat fleet. I think the Swedish airforce was the first in approaching this ideal (with their Saab 105, by now obsolescent)
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Re: BAE Hawk

Postby shark bait » 11 Jul 2015, 01:45



What do people think of the UK's recent interest in Textron's scorpion? I guess its a T1 replacement candidate or maybe even for future CAS a kind of tornado replacement. I think I could advocate such an aircraft if it could be fitted with brimstone and paveway.

Cheap and cheerful and multirole, it appears pretty compelling
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Re: BAE Hawk

Postby RetroSicotte » 11 Jul 2015, 11:54

Honestly, sounds like something our Reapers already do. Budget wise it'd be nice, but we already have that sort of ability with the UAVs so I doubt the budget would look for it. It'd honestly be cheaper to just buy more Hawk T2's than get a separate fleet.

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Re: BAE Hawk

Postby Gabriele » 11 Jul 2015, 14:58

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
RetroSicotte wrote:
marktigger wrote:possibly because the Hawk is nearing its sell by date the 346 is meant to be excellent and very modern. whereas BaE have sat back on their laurels a bit which is typical and such a shame.

[...]

Do note, the French are interested in the 345, not the 346.


The Italians are an odd lot, their aircraft evolve backwards, designation number -wise!

As someone already said, 346 set new standards in transonic training (the typical combat manoeuvring speed, exc. for the very few that can supercruise) and 345 has been improved further as for operating economics and cockpit "high fidelity" to the next step combat jet cockpit:


"Avionics are based on the latest M-346 experience and match the standards of the latest combat jets, including HOTAS controls, Head-Up Displays (HUD) and Multi-Function Displays (MFD), the real-time datalink and the Embedded Simulation system aboard the aircraft.

The M-345 HET is powered by a turbofan in the 1,600 kg / 3,500 lbs. maximum thrust range. The airframe is stressed for +7/-3,5 g"
- all this is for the overriding aim of dropping one type in the pilot training chain and saving airframe hours (and avgas!) on the precious combat fleet. I think the Swedish airforce was the first in approaching this ideal (with their Saab 105, by now obsolescent)



The 345 is actually a resurrection of the old S-211 design which came out in the 80s but didn't exactly have that much success back then. The idea of the 345 is to be serve as a Basic - Intermediate trainer, with jet engine (for more realistic training, since this phase is currently done most frequently on turboprops, think Tucano, PC-21 and T-6C) but at the same cost of a turboprop.

The 346 is an Advanced Trainer, and does what Hawk T2 does in the RAF.

In the renewed italian air force training system, the pilots will do basic training on the 345 before moving on to the 346 for the advanced training prior to passage to Typhoon and F-35. The 345 will also replace the current 339 in the Frecce Tricolori.

So, while the 345 is coming after the 346 on the timeline, it actually makes sense to have it called 345 .
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Re: BAE Hawk

Postby Ron5 » 11 Jul 2015, 17:10

Scorpion has been mentioned for the RN to perform the target role currently performed by Hawks. The contract is up for renewal in a couple years. Low flying cost, excellent endurance, & small outline would be great for that. Tad slow tho.

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Re: BAE Hawk

Postby The Armchair Soldier » 13 Jul 2015, 12:18

Rare video of a Hawk low-level attack run:


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Re: BAE Hawk

Postby -Eddie- » 13 Jul 2015, 18:12

The Armchair Soldier wrote:Rare video of a Hawk low-level attack run:


If the QFI in the back is adding targets and threats on the fly and the system is also computing IPs, waypoints and avoidance manoeuvres in reaction then that is a very impressive aircraft. A big leap from the Hawk T.1A.

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Re: BAE Hawk

Postby shark bait » 13 Jul 2015, 21:27

-Eddie- wrote:If the QFI in the back is adding targets and threats on the fly and the system is also computing IPs, waypoints and avoidance manoeuvres in reaction then that is a very impressive aircraft. A big leap from the Hawk T.1A.


Yes the software on board is said to be second to none.

RetroSicotte wrote:Honestly, sounds like something our Reapers already do. Budget wise it'd be nice, but we already have that sort of ability with the UAVs so I doubt the budget would look for it. It'd honestly be cheaper to just buy more Hawk T2's than get a separate fleet.


It does yes, personally I would advocate more reapers and Hawk to boost air support cheaply.
The Scorpion is considerably larger with room for more stuff, internally and externally, that's the only advantage I can see, but that's irrelevant if its only used for training.
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Re: BAE Hawk

Postby seaspear » 13 Jul 2015, 21:48

I seem to recall reading that in the cold war days there was a plan that if required the Hawks would be put in front line action and flown by the instructors, any information on this


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