Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by downsizer »

shark bait wrote:The standard radar is good for for maritime, littoral and overland surveillance, possibly to the standard of sentinel.
Your experience to quantify that is what exactly? Have you even been on either?

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by ~UNiOnJaCk~ »

shark bait wrote:Yes, but there won't be enough to do both roles.
There's probably a good case to make in favour of the argument that we don't even have enough to just to cover the MPA stuff alone, as things stand at present!

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

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downsizer wrote:Your experience to quantify that is what exactly? Have you even been on either?
Sentinel yes, the rest is open source info.
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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by abc123 »

shark bait wrote:Yes, but there won't be enough to do both roles.
This.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

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shark bait wrote:Sentinel yes
Operationally? Or at an Airshow type event?

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by downsizer »

shark bait wrote:
downsizer wrote:Your experience to quantify that is what exactly? Have you even been on either?
Sentinel yes, the rest is open source info.
Still waiting for an answer to my last question.

But I suspect that no, you've never seen operationally the capabilities of sentinel because non-AAS P8 overland surveillance is not comparable in terms of what can be done. AAS P8 will be better than current sentinel.

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

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Don’t let Sentinel wither on the vine, warns RAF ISTAR commander
Reducing the RAF’s Sentinel R1 fleet from five to four aircraft would be a major blunder and lead to a loss of critical and much needed UK ISR capability, warned the commander of the RAF’s ISTAR fleet.

Speaking passionately and frankly at a Raytheon briefing, ISTAR Force Commander Air Commodore Dean Andrew, vowed he would be talking hard to decision-makers and others to reverse the decision set out in last November’s SDSR to reduce the Sentinel fleet from five to four aircraft and keep this, small but critical UK defence capability.

Said Air Cdr Andrew of Sentinel, who also oversees Reaper, RC-135W, E-3D as well as upcoming platforms like P-8 and Protector said that Sentinel, which provides long-ranger swath and spot SAR and GMTI radar mapping, is the: “Number one requested [RAF ISR] capability from our coalition partners” adding “It’s the Prime Minister’s go-to aeroplane” in its role as a strategic ISR asset. However, despite its hard working aircraft and crews, who have seen operations in recent years in Afghanistan, Libya, Mali, Nigeria, the UK (mapping floods) and now anti-ISIS operations in the Middle East, the platform has always seemed to be under threat from early retirement: “many people don’t understand the platform” said Air Cdre Andrew.

Meanwhile, industry partner Raytheon stand ready to help the Sentinel fleet continue in service with a Focussed Asset Availability Contact and funded (Satcom, integrated radar programme) and potential (ELINT, LOROP) upgrades to keep the fleet viable beyond 2021.
Read More: http://www.aerosociety.com/News/Insight ... 16-Day-Two

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

The Armchair Soldier wrote:Reducing the RAF’s Sentinel R1 fleet from five to four aircraft would be a major blunder and lead to a loss of critical and much needed UK ISR capability, warned the commander of the RAF’s ISTAR fleet.

Speaking passionately and frankly at a Raytheon briefing, ISTAR Force Commander Air Commodore Dean Andrew, vowed he would be talking hard to decision-makers and others to reverse the decision set out
There we go... one was fitted out for MPA type of trials. And, now, it is deemed too expensive to bring it back to the core role???
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by S M H »

With the one airframe was modified to a M.R.A. fitted sentinel. Its probably covering a big hole left from the demise of M.P.A. The fleet of operational airframes has been effectively 4. The procurement of two P8s would replace the M.R.A. modified sentinel. The Lockheed J.S.T.A.R. replacement tender for the U.S.A.F. looks very common to sentinel so it would be sensible to keep the four airframes running. at least till we can procure the over land capability for the P8 . With hopefully additional P8s That way we don't lose the very useful capability. The upgrade of the four would be no loss of capability? The mod would follow is practice of reducing the fifth aircraft to spares.

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by Ron5 »

I wonder if Hammond's new job will minimize these seemingly penny pinching decisions in the future. He was MinDef at one point. The press said he was a good one. Not that that means anything.

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

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Ron5 wrote:I wonder if Hammond's new job will minimize these seemingly penny pinching decisions in the future. He was MinDef at one point. The press said he was a good one. Not that that means anything.
Here's hoping. Probably more important that the events of the last few weeks gives the new Government a chance to ditch "austerity". It certainly seems as if May is setting the stage for that.
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

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Ron5 wrote:I wonder if Hammond's new job will minimize these seemingly penny pinching decisions in the future. He was MinDef at one point. The press said he was a good one. Not that that means anything.
I think he did a good job. What amuses me is the new trio in place of an all-powerful foreign sec:
-a good brain to do the Brexit job (for the outcome of which the PM will be held accountable anyway)
- international trade sec (new) to see to the rest of the world
... and Boris as the fall guy, to fix everything that did not work "the first time" around
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

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ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Ron5 wrote:I wonder if Hammond's new job will minimize these seemingly penny pinching decisions in the future. He was MinDef at one point. The press said he was a good one. Not that that means anything.
I think he did a good job. What amuses me is the new trio in place of an all-powerful foreign sec:
-a good brain to do the Brexit job (for the outcome of which the PM will be held accountable anyway)
- international trade sec (new) to see to the rest of the world
... and Boris as the fall guy, to fix everything that did not work "the first time" around
I believe that the FCO, Brexit and International Trade all form a single super-ministry, The Ministry for You Made This Mess, You Clean It Up. :)

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

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Pseudo wrote:I believe that the FCO, Brexit and International Trade all form a single super-ministry, The Ministry for You Made This Mess, You Clean It Up.
Exactly, I just could not come up with such a snappy description!
- I hope some journos put that in circulation (if any of them read around here, it was obvious at the height of the Ukraine crisis, but not any longer?)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

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Pseudo wrote:
ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Ron5 wrote:I wonder if Hammond's new job will minimize these seemingly penny pinching decisions in the future. He was MinDef at one point. The press said he was a good one. Not that that means anything.
I think he did a good job. What amuses me is the new trio in place of an all-powerful foreign sec:
-a good brain to do the Brexit job (for the outcome of which the PM will be held accountable anyway)
- international trade sec (new) to see to the rest of the world
... and Boris as the fall guy, to fix everything that did not work "the first time" around
I believe that the FCO, Brexit and International Trade all form a single super-ministry, The Ministry for You Made This Mess, You Clean It Up. :)
May will carry the can whatever happens. She knows that so the idea of putting in a team set up to fail is not very realistic.

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by Gabriele »

There we go... one was fitted out for MPA type of trials. And, now, it is deemed too expensive to bring it back to the core role???
Is that the problem? The embodiment of a maritime mode into the radar is an update that is still going to happen fleet-wide (while adding a long range optical sensor; ELINT / SIGINT are not at present funded) so that is not likely to be the issue... It seems to be purely a matter of money and manpower. 1 aircraft less, and 50% less crews, apparently.
You might also know me as Liger30, from that great forum than MP.net was.

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Ron5 wrote:
Pseudo wrote:
ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Ron5 wrote:I wonder if Hammond's new job will minimize these seemingly penny pinching decisions in the future. He was MinDef at one point. The press said he was a good one. Not that that means anything.
I think he did a good job. What amuses me is the new trio in place of an all-powerful foreign sec:
-a good brain to do the Brexit job (for the outcome of which the PM will be held accountable anyway)
- international trade sec (new) to see to the rest of the world
... and Boris as the fall guy, to fix everything that did not work "the first time" around
I believe that the FCO, Brexit and International Trade all form a single super-ministry, The Ministry for You Made This Mess, You Clean It Up. :)
May will carry the can whatever happens. She knows that so the idea of putting in a team set up to fail is not very realistic.
That's not what I said, either. The best possible team at the action level, but a filter between them and her to catch all the "rubbish items" that will need rework... or would a lightning rod be a better expression?
- btw, you might be good at politics (twisting what other people say)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by WhitestElephant »

What is the difference between the Sentinel R1 and Shadow R1?
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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Intra- and inter-theatre... the latter can of course morphe, but the former not.

That is before even comparing their sensor capabilities.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by Gabriele »

Not too much has been said about Shadow R1's exact mission fit, but Sentinel R1 has a big radar for long range surveillance of the battlefield and moving target tracking. It sits high above, at stand off range as much as possible, and side-scans with its radar to track everything on the ground.

Shadow R1 has a EO/IR turret and ELINT / SIGINT equipment to pick up enemy radio, comms, electronic noise.
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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

So, to add an example to what G just said, the French SF got a few with a similar fitout to ours, but their task is to stay in the area, as flying command posts, when the helos landing and extracting the force (plus coming in as fire support, at times) do not have the persistance.
- so, surveillance yes; but there can be more to it
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by downsizer »

There is a reason why the Shadow's capability isn't largely in the public domain FFS.

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by Gabriele »

I don't doubt there are good reasons.

Instead, I do doubt about the promised expansion of the Shadow R1 fleet to 8 aircraft. I might be wrong, but it sounds to me like one of those low visibility SDSR committments that vanish away in the silence in the space of a few months.
You might also know me as Liger30, from that great forum than MP.net was.

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by WhitestElephant »

I appreciate the responses here. Thank you very much.
Though we are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are. - Lord Tennyson (Ulysses)

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Post by downsizer »

Gabriele wrote: Instead, I do doubt about the promised expansion of the Shadow R1 fleet to 8 aircraft. I might be wrong, but it sounds to me like one of those low visibility SDSR committments that vanish away in the silence in the space of a few months.
You could be right with that. I genuinely don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised. But then SF love it, and what SF want, SF generally gets.

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