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Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 06 Feb 2020, 10:00

For the fast jets that we have in the current fleet
- with Tornado (the pod fitted onto it) it made self-escorting (armed) wide-area recce possible in a high-threat environment

On a Herc, the applicability would be more limited, to lower intensity conflicts, incl. peacekeeping and monitoring... something Boris pledged already: that we stand ready to do such a thing in Libya (a rather big place, with porous borders)

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Postby SW1 » 06 Feb 2020, 10:34

ArmChairCivvy wrote:For the fast jets that we have in the current fleet
- with Tornado (the pod fitted onto it) it made self-escorting (armed) wide-area recce possible in a high-threat environment


Pods possible for the sensor on typhoon should we wish to if they wish to spend the money, sensor also available on f16 platform and reaper and has been integrated on a biz jet.

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 06 Feb 2020, 14:56

SW1 wrote: available on f16 platform and reaper and has been integrated on a biz jet.


So which one from out fleet shall we pick then...
- The Hercs we have, at least for now (the trade-off , or sliding scale to the new transport fleet, has been kept very nebulous (take note: ex-Head of Commission :lol: ) and regardless of how sales-driven (anything that is sold off will also maintain the Marshalls facility as for the biz volume going thru it) the decision as to how many we will retain for SF work is, err, unknown. Or is it? Have I missed any announcements?

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Postby SW1 » 06 Feb 2020, 16:43

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
SW1 wrote: available on f16 platform and reaper and has been integrated on a biz jet.


So which one from out fleet shall we pick then...
- The Hercs we have, at least for now (the trade-off , or sliding scale to the new transport fleet, has been kept very nebulous (take note: ex-Head of Commission :lol: ) and regardless of how sales-driven (anything that is sold off will also maintain the Marshalls facility as for the biz volume going thru it) the decision as to how many we will retain for SF work is, err, unknown. Or is it? Have I missed any announcements?


While this is drifting a little from sentinel there’s a number of things and sensor pods to consider, a BACN type podded system, a EW podded system, the “Sniffer” pod, possibly an osprey aesa system, seasprey, optical podded system, litening 5, recce lite. Aircraft that have hard points or could have, along with in some cases persons put in part of the cabin could be voyager, a400m, sentinel, shadow, Hercules, typhoon, protector not to mention a loyal wingman uav or seudo satellite or micro satellite. For something like DB-110 I would suggest height would give a long stare which would be helpful

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 06 Feb 2020, 18:12

Timmymagic wrote:t will be interesting to see if the DB110 sensors from RAPTOR ever see the light again..

... and the answer to this one is ...??

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 06 Feb 2020, 19:18

Was there a reason ever given why the RAPTOR pod could not be used by the Typhoon other than money? I thought using a number of the retired T2 platforms as RAPTOR platforms would have made perfect sense, if there was a will to retain the capability. Maybe the Powers that be thought think the future of airborne recce lies purely with UAVs?

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Postby SW1 » 06 Feb 2020, 21:15

Lord Jim wrote:Was there a reason ever given why the RAPTOR pod could not be used by the Typhoon other than money? I thought using a number of the retired T2 platforms as RAPTOR platforms would have made perfect sense, if there was a will to retain the capability. Maybe the Powers that be thought think the future of airborne recce lies purely with UAVs?


RAPTOR is the pod for Tornado that houses the sensor. The sensor can be housed in other pods if we choose to do it most likely a pod designed around a typhoon drop tank profile.

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 06 Feb 2020, 21:18

OR maybe just clear the Typhoon to carry the Pod that housed the RAPTOR on its centreline pylon, and do some rewiring including that of the rear cockpit. I am pretty sure such a thing would have been doable if the will was there.

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Postby SW1 » 06 Feb 2020, 21:24

Lord Jim wrote:OR maybe just clear the Typhoon to carry the Pod that housed the RAPTOR on its centreline pylon, and do some rewiring including that of the rear cockpit. I am pretty sure such a thing would have been doable if the will was there.


Reconnaissance Airborne Pod TORnado (RAPTOR) was designed around a large tornado fuel tank it will not fit on the centre line station of typhoon. The sensor would need to housed in a new pod for typhoon.

https://repairsearch.utcaerospacesystem ... system.pdf

On other platforms

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 06 Feb 2020, 22:01

ArmChairCivvy wrote:... and the answer to this one is ...??


I suspect it will turn up on Protector, easy integration on that as DB110 was carried by US Reaper. Don't think the numbers we've got (think its 6 pods) would justify the work on Typhoon. I think we may get something like Reccelite for Typhoon eventually.

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 06 Feb 2020, 23:55

As he old saying goes, "Where there's a will there's a way", with the emphasis on the "Will".

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Postby downsizer » 07 Feb 2020, 08:04

Raptor pod doesn't fit comfortably, so you can't just clear it.

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 07 Feb 2020, 08:40

Is that "too big" then?

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 07 Feb 2020, 09:57

Timmymagic wrote: I think we may get something like Reccelite for Typhoon eventually.


WE will probably end up with the latest version of one of the Israeli multifunction pods, with Targeting, Recce capability and also equipped with a SAR. If we want the DB110 then it would be easiest to install it on a Biz Jet and have them work with the Sentinels, if common sense prevails and we retain the latter. Mind you if we are using a Bombardier for example we good use its big brother, the Sensor that was used on the Canberra PR9 and is still in use on the U2. It won't fly as high as the former but still high enough to get decent results. I still remember the clear pictures of Big Ben taken by a PR9 over the Isle of Wight. You would have thought they were taken by a helicopter over the Thames! :D

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 07 Feb 2020, 13:12

Lord Jim wrote:WE will probably end up with the latest version of one of the Israeli multifunction pods, with Targeting, Recce capability and also equipped with a SAR.


Reccelite XR is that pod that you're thinking of.

https://www.janes.com/article/89175/raf ... xr-eo-pods

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Postby RetroSicotte » 18 Feb 2020, 13:17

https://www.janes.com/article/94360/uk- ... -from-2021

Another major capability to be lost with basically no intent to replace.

First RAPTOR, then Sentinel.

They just do not care.

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 18 Feb 2020, 15:17

The Government seems to be blind to defence. After Iraq and Afghanistan they seem to thein that the equipment we have is capable of dealing with a top tier opponent like Russia, hence they are happy to talk about NATO standing up to the threat. If a war did break out the casualties we would suffer through poor equipment and lack of key capabilities would be massive.

The US and Russia have shown the need to have fully integrated ISAR capabilities. Sentinel is a unique capability that few nations can match. WE should be expanding the force by adding four to six Bombardier Jets carrying the RAPTOR in a canoe under the fuselage. These working in tandem with the Sentinels would have provided a superb ISTAR capability, able to operate from well behind the front line and seeing far into opposition territory.

The Service Chiefs need to grow a pair and fight to defend what they have and make the case for the capabilities we desperately need to be an effective military rather then one the has no mas but looks good on paper.

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Postby SW1 » 18 Feb 2020, 17:17

Sentinel force has been shabbily treated for many years, it’s has been an extremely heavily tasked forced and constantly in demand being a unique capability. This is not the only loss Sentry AWAC have already started to be disposed off as well, the force is dwn to 4. At the end of the day the piper must be paid, we’ve ordered p8 we don’t have a proper budget for and likewise e7s, we’ll see how well sourcing of second hand airframes for that and like goes now Boeing’s up it neck in the smelly stuff. Interestingly saab have all three globaleye flying and starting delivery to uae 4 years after a clean sheet contract award, wonder how long our off the shelf buy will take.

At the end of day this is what happens when we soap box defence reviews instead of taking a balance and strategic look at what needs done and how to do it we have jumping up and down about the usual sacred cows from all and sundary. Which means the enablers and there support cast who for the large part need to remain away from public eye have the cuts fall on them because there not headline makers, situation normal.

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Postby abc123 » 18 Feb 2020, 17:34

Lord Jim wrote:
The Service Chiefs need to grow a pair and fight to defend what they have and make the case for the capabilities we desperately need to be an effective military


But, peerages and perks... :o
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Postby abc123 » 18 Feb 2020, 18:04

RetroSicotte wrote:https://www.janes.com/article/94360/uk-faces-astor-capability-gap-from-2021

Another major capability to be lost with basically no intent to replace.

First RAPTOR, then Sentinel.

They just do not care.


:thumbdown:

I'm afraid that's just the beginning of the cuts... :thumbdown:
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Postby bobp » 18 Feb 2020, 21:31

Shame this is happening. And the E3 Sentry fleet is down to three Aircraft as well. The Sentinels capability was essential in recent conflicts, it will be missed when its gone.

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 19 Feb 2020, 05:29

SW1 wrote:we’ve ordered p8 we don’t have a proper budget for and likewise e7s, we’ll see how well sourcing of second hand airframes for that and like goes

bobp wrote: And the E3 Sentry fleet is down to three Aircraft as well.

There's a clear 'hand-to-mouth' pattern here.

Is it merely a coincidence, though, that the nine lives of the Sentinels will run out at the end of 2021... when the overland capability on P8s should - and I have not kept up with the progress towards that goal - become operational in 2022? As in:
" There are a range of options that could meet the PWAS(L) capability both in the short term and into the future. The Ministry of Defence is reviewing the capability and solutions available as part of the annual review of the Equipment Programme. The final decision will be reviewed within the Integrated Foreign Policy, Security and Defence Review that will be carried out later this year."
- that statement also let's slip that SDSR hasn't been started yet. As our 'power ministries' are busy with... concentrating more power :lol: in their hands

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Postby RetroSicotte » 19 Feb 2020, 08:23

AKA - "It's okay we have this thing to replace it, we are investing in our armed forces blah blah blah don't pay attention to that it doesn't replace it in the slightest blah blah work with allies."

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 19 Feb 2020, 14:22

The MoD has stated that there will be no overland role for the P-8 as the fleet will be purely concentrating on its maritime role and isn't big enough to do both.

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Re: Raytheon Sentinel R1 (RAF)

Postby RetroSicotte » 19 Feb 2020, 15:41

Lord Jim wrote:The MoD has stated that there will be no overland role for the P-8 as the fleet will be purely concentrating on its maritime role and isn't big enough to do both.

Indeed, but unfortunately it'll be good luck getting Boris to not claim it anyway. 95% of the population don't follow the specifics like we do.


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