Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
Little J
Member
Posts: 973
Joined: 02 May 2015, 14:35
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by Little J »

Distant family? :mrgreen:
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5656
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

Deal as gd as done

https://www.defensenews.com/industry/20 ... craft-buy/

Williamson said the Ministry of Defence had undertaken market analysis and discussions with other potential providers, concluding “that the potential procurement of the E-7 represents the best value for money option for the U.K. against need, whilst representing a significant opportunity for increased defense cooperation and collaboration with our key ally Australia.”

Said Williamson: “The MoD will work closely with Boeing to ensure [exploration of] how Britain’s leading defense industry could also benefit from any deal.”

One company expected to benefit from any E-7 deal is the Marshall Aerospace and Defence Group.

Marshall already builds auxiliary fuel tanks for the Poseidon P-8 maritime patrol aircraft program, and industry sources say the Cambridge, England-based company is set to convert 737 aircraft to the Wedgetail configuration as part of the deal.

Timmymagic
Donator
Posts: 3224
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

shark bait wrote:The IAI conformal AEW aircraft, which is similar to the SAAB system, but with additional sensors so give 360 degrees of coverage. However the radar tech is likely less sophisticated than the SAAB
Looks like the IAI G550 has a GaN radar as well.

Timmymagic
Donator
Posts: 3224
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

SW1 wrote:Deal as gd as done
Looks like it is. And for once we should all be grateful as this seems a very positive, cost neutral, increase in capability. A year ago we were facing a long drawn out upgrade of the E-3 fleet that had the potential, if we're honest, to be continually cut during its duration. Hell we'd have probably managed to upgrade them to the latest USAF standard just in time for them to go and procure a replacement.

Timmymagic
Donator
Posts: 3224
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

Little J wrote:Distant family?
The previous IAI AWACS, the Phalcon looked very similar.

I still remember the Nimrod AEW kept for ground training at Finningley looking very forlorn through the 80's..

User avatar
Ianmb17
Member
Posts: 145
Joined: 01 May 2015, 21:33
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by Ianmb17 »

I hope the Aussies give use of KC-30A (A330 MRTT)to refuel them

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5656
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

Timmymagic wrote:
SW1 wrote:Deal as gd as done
Looks like it is. And for once we should all be grateful as this seems a very positive, cost neutral, increase in capability. A year ago we were facing a long drawn out upgrade of the E-3 fleet that had the potential, if we're honest, to be continually cut during its duration. Hell we'd have probably managed to upgrade them to the latest USAF standard just in time for them to go and procure a replacement.
I wish I shared your optimism, I think we’re making a mistake.

abc123
Senior Member
Posts: 2900
Joined: 10 May 2015, 18:15
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by abc123 »

SW1 wrote:
Timmymagic wrote:
SW1 wrote:Deal as gd as done
Looks like it is. And for once we should all be grateful as this seems a very positive, cost neutral, increase in capability. A year ago we were facing a long drawn out upgrade of the E-3 fleet that had the potential, if we're honest, to be continually cut during its duration. Hell we'd have probably managed to upgrade them to the latest USAF standard just in time for them to go and procure a replacement.
I wish I shared your optimism, I think we’re making a mistake.
Can you elaborate please?
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

Dahedd
Member
Posts: 660
Joined: 06 May 2015, 11:18

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by Dahedd »

SW1 wrote:
I wish I shared your optimism, I think we’re making a mistake.
Why do you think that? What would be the better option?I'd think the Boeing makes far more sense given the compatibility with the New P8's.

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 7314
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

I don't really mind which system we purchase as long as we don't repeat the same mistakes we made with the E-3D and not properly support and invest in the platform to keep it up to date and relevant.

Mercator
Member
Posts: 669
Joined: 06 May 2015, 02:10
Contact:
Australia

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by Mercator »

shark bait wrote:The global eye feature some nice additional features, with an optical sensor and another radar on its belly it's has a mid range maritime surveillance role, as well as a ground moving target indicator to support land forces. The Boeing has nothing comparable.
The E-7 radar interweaves the air to air and surface modes simultaneously. See here:

http://airpower.airforce.gov.au/APDC/me ... rpoint.pdf

No GMTI, but honestly, I'm not sure of the utility of that. On most radars I'm aware of, it's a relatively short range capability (<100 km). Happy to be corrected on that. If so, I doubt your AEWC aircraft has any business being that close. I think UAVs are better suited to something like that these days, except in very benign circumstances. (YMMV)

Also, the Boeing has a very good ESM system. Very good. And, crucially, space for a couple of good operators to make the best of it. I'm not sure the other bizjets are comparable, except perhaps the Israelis. It also has pretty decent defensive aids like DIRCM, as well. The bizjet's systems seemingly aren't quite as advanced.

Mercator
Member
Posts: 669
Joined: 06 May 2015, 02:10
Contact:
Australia

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by Mercator »

This just in from the Australian Defence Minister:

topman
Member
Posts: 771
Joined: 07 May 2015, 20:56
Tokelau

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by topman »

Lord Jim wrote:I don't really mind which system we purchase as long as we don't repeat the same mistakes we made with the E-3D and not properly support and invest in the platform to keep it up to date and relevant.
That's the problem we'll probably end up repeating with the E-7 or something else we'll have to give up to pay for it or to pay for running it. Do we really understand the compromises this choice brings, probably, however handwavitis will solve the problems 10 years down the line.

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 7314
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

I wonder if we could lease the E-7s from Boeing and part of the lease being they are maintained to the current standard? It would cost more in the long run but may incur lesser up front costs. We could also agree as part of the lease to allow our fleet to be used for testing enhancements and for showing these and the platform to possible future buyers. I think we need to look at more innovative procurement practices without repeating the errors of past PFIs. Of course these ideas are applicable to all the current candidates to replace the E-3D.

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 6427
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Pitcairn Island

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by shark bait »

Lord Jim wrote:repeat the same mistakes we made with the E-3D and not properly support and invest in the platform to keep it up to date and relevant
Why do you think the Ozzies are so keen to sell an American aircraft full of American systems? They need some one else to pay and upgrade it.
Mercator wrote:The E-7 radar interweaves the air to air and surface modes simultaneously.
That's one of the big benefits with electronic beam forming, but i'm not sure of it's value as a surveillance aircraft without an optical turret/SAR. Perhaps it would make a good multi mission aircraft with the addition of a sensor pod.
@LandSharkUK

R686
Senior Member
Posts: 2322
Joined: 28 May 2015, 02:43
Australia

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by R686 »

shark bait wrote: Why do you think the Ozzies are so keen to sell an American aircraft full of American systems? They need some one else to pay and upgrade it.
You really think that?



I guess you don't want any Australian money for the T26 design?

https://www.minister.defence.gov.au/min ... rocurement

Timmymagic
Donator
Posts: 3224
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

R686 wrote:ou really think that?
I think its worth noting that Australia aren't the only operator for E-7, South Korea is as well and Turkey...

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 6427
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Pitcairn Island

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by shark bait »

R686 wrote:You really think that?
Yes, that's they whole point of having a large user group, support costs are diluted.
@LandSharkUK

Timmymagic
Donator
Posts: 3224
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

Looks like its happening...


User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 6427
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Pitcairn Island

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by shark bait »

Great news...... as long as they can invent some money.
@LandSharkUK

R686
Senior Member
Posts: 2322
Joined: 28 May 2015, 02:43
Australia

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by R686 »

shark bait wrote:
R686 wrote:You really think that?
Yes, that's they whole point of having a large user group, support costs are diluted.

Yes its beneficial, but not the Raison d'être, we would have upgraded in any case irrespective of foreign orders. Wedgetail is a software driven aircraft

From Air Marshall Davies
This is a software upgradeable aircraft with a defined launch point (IOC) but no fixed end point (FOC). The system will always be evolving and growing as the software code gets rewritten to reflect events and demands from the squadron.


In discussions with Paul Kalafos, Vice President of Surveillance Systems at Northrop Grumman
The specially configured 737 has been acquired by the South Koreans (Project Peace Eye) and by Turkey (Project Peace Eagle).The three nations have a similarly configured aircraft from a hardware point of view, but the software is configured differently for each.

“The Australians are the leading nation in terms of software; they have been investing in the software development with the industrial team and lead the way. They have been funding a number of updates.”
And the reason is,
There are other nations operating Wedgetail, namely South Korea and Turkey. And the squadron will operate later this year with both countries. But US ITAR restrictions limit the under the hood cross-learning available from nations working the same aircraft, a restriction which may make no sense when South Korea and Australia will operate more and more together within the strategic quadrangle
I wonder how the US ITAR restrictions will effect the UK?

bobp
Senior Member
Posts: 2684
Joined: 06 May 2015, 07:52
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by bobp »

Great news hope the deal is done and dusted soonest. But this is another reason why Voyager needs a refuelling boom.

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5656
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

abc123 wrote:
SW1 wrote:
Timmymagic wrote:
SW1 wrote:Deal as gd as done
Looks like it is. And for once we should all be grateful as this seems a very positive, cost neutral, increase in capability. A year ago we were facing a long drawn out upgrade of the E-3 fleet that had the potential, if we're honest, to be continually cut during its duration. Hell we'd have probably managed to upgrade them to the latest USAF standard just in time for them to go and procure a replacement.
I wish I shared your optimism, I think we’re making a mistake.
Can you elaborate please?
For a start there is a number of modern options out there all of which are flying so the risks involved in acquiring them is less. The most modern of them are the two biz jet options globaleye and Israeli options. The wedgetail was a program started in 2000 so it technology while upgraded over the years is much older that either the Saab or IAI radars. There has been a significant change in miniaturisation of tech over the last decade and the open architecture nature of smarter command systems.

The convertion of a large biz jet plane is now a known quantity and there is signifcant radar and esm systems within the UK that can be installed on these a/c should we wish to have even more uk content that on the existing platforms. It should also be noted that the radar system on the wedgetail has not been in production for a while. The other options are cheaper to buy and significantly cheaper to operate than a commercial airliner. This has to be a consideration given it has been thru life supt costs that have crippled the sentry awacs in that we simply haven’t allocated funds to keep it up to date. Will we simply be back at this point 10 years from now?

The only urgent rush to get this aircraft is that Boeing is ended 737-700 production soon. This leads to two problems either we would have to pay to integrate it into a different 737 with a completely different engine and systems to the legacy b737 or we would have to buy second hand airframes. The RAF likes to have all its base aircraft at the same airworthiness mod standard before starting conversion, so buying on the second hand market would likely mean either aircraft have mods applied to them or others de-moded to bring them to the same standard not impossible but will add cost.

There is much talk about commonality and a hope the US follows suit but this maybe misplaced the US has talked about and is starting to practise moving away from having high value single critical nodes to a more distributed air management system we seem to staying like for like. There is every possiblility they will move to something smaller than wedgetail and distribute its ISR capability across multiple platforms the very essence of moving to a UAV, F35,F22 future system in contested environments. It would be an irony if we went with wedgetail only for the US to announce it was moving to a biz jet style platform in about 5 years time like it is doing/planning with compass call, BACN and jstars ect and offboarding more of the manpower tasks to either AI or other platforms in the air or ground environment.

I will also add that Boeing as a company tried its very best to completely destroy a very significant part of this countries aircraft manufacturing capability playing up to trumps America first so it could produce and sell embrarer a/c in the US without a competitior. Not a trustworthy partner.

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 7314
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

It may or may not be a mistake, but the fact that we could be moving forward and actually getting somewhere is a big win for the RAF and UK. So many programme get stuck in limbo when the MoD gets stuck in a loop over a new platform, unable to decide what they what as against what they need, and the list goes on and on. We need more decisive procurement at least in the short term as the bow wave of procurement programmes is getting bigger and bigger. We almost need to simply have two criteria for near term procurement;
1. Does it do the job required.
2. Are its purchase and support costs the cheapest.

abc123
Senior Member
Posts: 2900
Joined: 10 May 2015, 18:15
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

Post by abc123 »

SW1 wrote:
abc123 wrote:
SW1 wrote:
Timmymagic wrote:
SW1 wrote:Deal as gd as done
Looks like it is. And for once we should all be grateful as this seems a very positive, cost neutral, increase in capability. A year ago we were facing a long drawn out upgrade of the E-3 fleet that had the potential, if we're honest, to be continually cut during its duration. Hell we'd have probably managed to upgrade them to the latest USAF standard just in time for them to go and procure a replacement.
I wish I shared your optimism, I think we’re making a mistake.
Can you elaborate please?
For a start there is a number of modern options out there all of which are flying so the risks involved in acquiring them is less. The most modern of them are the two biz jet options globaleye and Israeli options. The wedgetail was a program started in 2000 so it technology while upgraded over the years is much older that either the Saab or IAI radars. There has been a significant change in miniaturisation of tech over the last decade and the open architecture nature of smarter command systems.

The convertion of a large biz jet plane is now a known quantity and there is signifcant radar and esm systems within the UK that can be installed on these a/c should we wish to have even more uk content that on the existing platforms. It should also be noted that the radar system on the wedgetail has not been in production for a while. The other options are cheaper to buy and significantly cheaper to operate than a commercial airliner. This has to be a consideration given it has been thru life supt costs that have crippled the sentry awacs in that we simply haven’t allocated funds to keep it up to date. Will we simply be back at this point 10 years from now?

The only urgent rush to get this aircraft is that Boeing is ended 737-700 production soon. This leads to two problems either we would have to pay to integrate it into a different 737 with a completely different engine and systems to the legacy b737 or we would have to buy second hand airframes. The RAF likes to have all its base aircraft at the same airworthiness mod standard before starting conversion, so buying on the second hand market would likely mean either aircraft have mods applied to them or others de-moded to bring them to the same standard not impossible but will add cost.

There is much talk about commonality and a hope the US follows suit but this maybe misplaced the US has talked about and is starting to practise moving away from having high value single critical nodes to a more distributed air management system we seem to staying like for like. There is every possiblility they will move to something smaller than wedgetail and distribute its ISR capability across multiple platforms the very essence of moving to a UAV, F35,F22 future system in contested environments. It would be an irony if we went with wedgetail only for the US to announce it was moving to a biz jet style platform in about 5 years time like it is doing/planning with compass call, BACN and jstars ect and offboarding more of the manpower tasks to either AI or other platforms in the air or ground environment.

I will also add that Boeing as a company tried its very best to completely destroy a very significant part of this countries aircraft manufacturing capability playing up to trumps America first so it could produce and sell embrarer a/c in the US without a competitior. Not a trustworthy partner.
But, are they ( biz jets ) good enough? Especially because of air space battle managment?
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

Post Reply