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Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 05 Nov 2019, 17:20

Ron5 wrote:Timmy, what's the difference between the two radars?


Not a spectacular amount is known. But apparently the 'Radar 2' is the Captor-E with additional capabilities from the UK's Brightadder programme and possibly a new antenna arrangement, including electronic attack and communications. The story goes that when the UK got a look at the APG-81 for the F-35 they wanted additional capabilities added to Captor-E. For the UK to go off on its own they must be seen as very important.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 05 Nov 2019, 17:24

Jensy wrote:I share your hopes but fear the Italians and us are likely to find the climate in Eurofighter GmbH decidedly frosty towards Team Tempest members.


Thats unlikely. The UK and Italy own 54% of Eurofighter GmbH. They call the shots. Airbus has 46%.

Jensy wrote:Last time I checked Airbus D&S still had a further 72 for the UK on its order books.


The 72 for the UK were transferred to Saudi Arabia.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Jensy » 06 Nov 2019, 02:38

Timmymagic wrote:Thats unlikely. The UK and Italy own 54% of Eurofighter GmbH. They call the shots. Airbus has 46%.

Jensy wrote:Last time I checked Airbus D&S still had a further 72 for the UK on its order books.


The 72 for the UK were transferred to Saudi Arabia.


Was that ever officially agreed by all the countries in place of the original obligations?

Tranche 3b appeared to have been conveniently and quickly forgotten about by the EF partner Governments as the recession hit. I thought it might come back one day in the form of demands for government subsidies once the order pipeline ran dry.

We definitely have a strong standing in the company but at the governmental level things are always a lot more complicated. The Brexit environment does not give us a great negotiating position.

ArmChairCivvy wrote:- SETTING THIS INTO THE "RADAR CONTEXT"
- that is where the Tempest & Eurofighter have now, officially, parted ways
... still the "same" planes. BUT come 2035?


I think that process has been a long time coming. Until now it has been down to the different air forces' priorities.

Now the shift towards the different next Gen tribes will probably speed this split up. Could we start to see Italy and Britain getting a Gripen flavoured Typhoon, with the Germans and Spanish aircraft speaking with a French accent, who knows?

So long as there are two European, next-gen fighters, the Typhoon is always going to have an awkward middle age.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 06 Nov 2019, 05:18

Jensy wrote:might come back one day in the form of demands for government subsidies once the order pipeline ran dry.
A good point. German line building for Germany, UK and Italian lines for Gulf states (I know it is not this simple, parts are flowing back and forth) and the Spanish one closed and for sale (Indonesia declined the offer, which was to be a sweetener to a purchase).
Jensy wrote:Italy and Britain getting a Gripen flavoured Typhoon

+
Jensy wrote:So long as there are two European, next-gen fighters
... more like two and a half; the Swedes getting a Typhoon flavoured Gripen. Isn't the current one already 40% British?

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 06 Nov 2019, 05:22

A quick afterthought (though a wrong thread): The buying power backing up Tempest (whatever the prgrm will deliver) just went up considerable as the Swedish AF doubled its fighter strength. Not overnight, but instead of the new Gripens replacing the current ones 1:1 they will be keeping both "tranches"... and the older ones won't last forever.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 06 Nov 2019, 09:11

Jensy wrote:Was that ever officially agreed by all the countries in place of the original obligations?


Contractually its all sound, essentially they bought the UK's obligation.

Jensy wrote:Could we start to see Italy and Britain getting a Gripen flavoured Typhoon


Radar One Plus is more advanced than the Gripen-E's set, which of course was developed from the Captor-E (which was in turn developed from the Captor-M whose roots lie in Blue Vixen) . Gripen actually got a small Typhoon radar that never went forward. the UK's Radar Two will be a very different beast. No Gripen or Swedish involvement. It would be closer to say it will get an F-35 flavour based on the capabilities.

ArmChairCivvy wrote:A good point. German line building for Germany, UK and Italian lines for Gulf states (I know it is not this simple, parts are flowing back and forth) and the Spanish one closed and for sale (Indonesia declined the offer, which was to be a sweetener to a purchase).


The Spanish line is likely to remain open with an additional order of 28 or so T3 Typhoons to replace the earliest Spanish EF-18.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby topman » 06 Nov 2019, 10:13

Timmymagic wrote:Looks like Germany/Airbus are also starting to look at Typhoon as a replacement for the Tornado ECR. Looks like it will require additional pylons plumbed for tanks in this configuration......and they've added Spear-EW....suspect this is just speculative, but is it signalling German interest? Surprised they didn't have AARGM on it due to Italian usage and German interest.



That looks expensive, new wing design for a start. Not sure all that cost for two small fuel tanks is worth it.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 06 Nov 2019, 10:48

topman wrote:That looks expensive, new wing design for a start. Not sure all that cost for two small fuel tanks is worth it.


Lots of comments from people on that. Doing that work for a comparatively small order from Germany (in relation to the entire programme), with little/no chance of retrofits to the rest of the fleet seems like a big/impossible ask. Cost wise I would have thought it would have rolled out more far expensive than finishing off the development of the conformal tanks and fully flight testing them. At least then there is a potential of sales to the other T3 users with the attachment brackets. What also isn't clear is if this Typhoon ECR is a 2 seater either, would have thought to get the full benefits that it would require a backseater, but that could mean a significant change in the cockpit.

From the conversations reported from the Airbus briefing it does look like there is some interest from the Germans for the AMK to provide better low speed and high AoA handling. If they pay for the full flight test and fit it might become an easy upgrade for other users.

Personally I hope the German's bite on it. Industrially it makes some sense in the run up to FCAS. For once the Germans could drive some enhancements that the UK could make use of, although it does appear they've changed tack on their radar choice.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby SW1 » 06 Nov 2019, 12:41

Of course they maybe intending to use the internal wing provisions and fuel management revisions for the conformal fuel tanks but for a pylon mounted option instead.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 06 Nov 2019, 14:41

The final specs and costs are due for the Finnish fighter competition in just over a year (Jan)
... and I would not discount some of the fleet being Growlers

The the other AFs (other than USAFE) would need to spell out in detail how they plan to "make do" without, be it the 'original issue' or this one:

Tim Robinson @RAeSTimR

A European alternative to the EA-18G Growler?


as per above thread

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Ron5 » 07 Nov 2019, 15:59

From Flight today:

Germany appears poised to advance a joint programme with Spain to equip the nations’ later-model Eurofighters with active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars, as Berlin also nears approving the acquisition of 38 new aircraft to replace its Tranche 1-standard interceptors.

“The [AESA] contract is ready – we are in negotiation with NETMA [the NATO Eurofighter and Tornado Management Agency] and the German customer to make sure that this contract can be implemented as soon as possible,” says Kurt Rossner, Airbus Defence & Space’s head of combat aircraft systems.

A deal should be finalised late this year or in early 2020, he says, with deliveries for both nations to commence in 2022. To be supplied by the Leonardo-led Euroradar consortium, the new “E-Scan Mk1” radar sets will be retrofitted to 110 Tranche 2 and 3 jets for Germany, while Spain plans to acquire an initial batch of 19 units.
Rossner notes that export buyers Kuwait and Qatar will receive Eurofighter Typhoons with “Mk1A” radars, with the German and Spanish configuration differing through the use of new multi-channel receiver technology. He indicates that the UK plans to field a future “Mk2” sensor optimised for electronic warfare tasks to complement operations with its Lockheed Martin F-35s.

Meanwhile, Airbus expects a contract from Berlin early next year for a Project Quadriga buy of 38 AESA radar-equipped Eurofighters. These are required to replace Tranche 1-standard aircraft delivered from around 2004.

Spain also appears intent on ordering additional examples to replace its Boeing F/A-18A/Bs. “Eurofighter has already been identified as an ideal replacement by the Spanish air force,” says Airbus Defence & Space head of military aircraft Alberto Gutierrez.

Speaking in Manching on 5 November, Gutierrez noted: “We have some healthy prospects in our home countries and are in a strong position for the coming export opportunities.”

Longer term, Airbus is pursuing a requirement to replace the German air force’s Panavia Tornado fleet by 2030. It is proposing to supply 45 Eurofighters with “strategic capabilities” – including nuclear weapons – and 40 in an electronic combat reconnaissance/suppression of enemy air-defence configuration suitable for use in an escort jammer role.

Securing new orders from Germany would support an Airbus-led campaign to sell Eurofighters to Switzerland. Rossner says the 40 aircraft offered to the nation are in the Quadriga configuration. A selection decision is expected late next year or in early 2021, with the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, F-35A and Dassault Rafale as rival candidates.

Rossner says deliveries of new aircraft for Germany could begin some 40-46 months after a contract signature, with final assembly in Manching to be at a rate of between eight and 10 per year. Airbus is already managing a production gap at the site following the completion of orders for the Luftwaffe, including reassigning personnel to support MRO tasks.

An eventual resumption of production would also bridge the gap until the manufacture of a proposed New Generation Fighter for France, Germany and Spain.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 07 Nov 2019, 16:23

Ron5 wrote: proposing to supply 45 Eurofighters with “strategic capabilities” – including nuclear weapons – and 40 in an electronic combat reconnaissance/suppression of enemy air-defence configuration suitable for use in an escort jammer role.
It is only a good thing that Growler being in the competition pushes the other participants hard... as the OpFor AD capabilities are what they are

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 07 Nov 2019, 18:42

Ron5 wrote:An eventual resumption of production would also bridge the gap until the manufacture of a proposed New Generation Fighter for France, Germany and Spain.


This is something I'd hope the UK and Italy consider as well. Money is tight but covering that gap, even to a degree, could actually save money in the long term. But I can't imagine the Treasury thinking like that.
I guess we'll just have to be satisfied with 143 Typhoon....

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 07 Nov 2019, 21:59

Timmymagic wrote:we'll just have to be satisfied with 143 Typhoon....


Is that figure a bit on the high side? Starting from 160 and taking away (53 - 24) plus a couple more written off?
as per "Fifty-three of the RAF’s Typhoons are of the oldest Tranche-1 variant and lack some of the sensors, software and weapons options of the newer Tranche-2 and Tranche-3 models.

The RAF has decided to keep just 24 of the older Typhoons in service, primarily for air-defense and aggressor duties."

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 07 Nov 2019, 23:20

Excluding the two Tranche 1 squadrons, the TAF will have five frontline squadrons with Tranche 2 and 3 airframes with only the Tranche 3 getting the new radar initially. With 12 operational a/c allocated to each squadron plus the reserve and OCU/OEU that would be around 80 to 90 airframes.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 08 Nov 2019, 05:02

Lord Jim wrote:Excluding the two Tranche 1 squadrons

Did we ever get to the bottom of this? Soon after the decision to retain Tr1s (which later turned out to be the limited number of them) an Air Marshall was talking about dedicated sqrns whereas later it has been understood that no such sqdrns will exist but rather a mix will be flown - though the burning off of airframe hours on QRA and
aggressor duties
would mainly happen with the Tr1 a/c
... throw into the mix that for other than EW aggressors the planned privatisation does not seem to get traction. A good thing that, in my books

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 08 Nov 2019, 11:33

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Is that figure a bit on the high side? Starting from 160 and taking away (53 - 24) plus a couple more written off?
as per "Fifty-three of the RAF’s Typhoons are of the oldest Tranche-1 variant and lack some of the sensors, software and weapons options of the newer Tranche-2 and Tranche-3 models.


I was just knocking off the 2 seat T1's that have been 'reduced to produce' and the Typhoon written off after the wheels up at China Lake. Not aware of any other write-offs to be honest (although there may be some).

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 09 Nov 2019, 02:07

I do believe there are actually two squadrons formed, with one being a joint UK/Qatari outfit. How they are actually organised and whether they actually have planes allocated I cannot find any info, so we could just be keeping the Tr1 airframes in the pool, with the majority of the usage being carrier out by these "Shadow", units.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 09 Nov 2019, 06:02

Lord Jim wrote: [how]they actually have planes allocated I cannot find any info

There is info, but contradictory.
- it easy to understand that if an Air Marshall says something on record, then another RAF bod will not directly reference that when the info that "we actually have had a rethink" goes out

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby downsizer » 09 Nov 2019, 07:24

IX(B) and 12 are the Sqns in question. 12 working with the Qataris.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 09 Nov 2019, 12:27

Ron5 wrote:Meanwhile, Airbus expects a contract from Berlin early next year for a Project Quadriga buy of 38 AESA radar-equipped Eurofighters. These are required to replace Tranche 1-standard aircraft delivered from around 2004.

Spain also appears intent on ordering additional examples to replace its Boeing F/A-18A/Bs. “Eurofighter has already been identified as an ideal replacement by the Spanish air force,” says Airbus Defence & Space head of military aircraft Alberto Gutierrez.


I think in the focus on final assembly lines we forget that Germany and Spain ordering additional Typhoon is incredibly good news for the UK as well, all the sub component and assembly manufacture that the UK will get is a real bonus and will keep British factories ticking over, even if the final assembly is elsewhere.

Now if only we could persuade the Saudi's to finally put the signature on the contract for the additional 48....

Not going to happen, but it would be rather good if we ordered an additional 24 with the explicit purpose of keeping the UK production line going as long as possible into the 2020's to try and tie up with Tempest. I'd have to say that even with F-35B and eventually Tempest we could actually do with some of the SEAD variant. It's a capability we've tinkered with for too long without committing properly.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Gabriele » 09 Nov 2019, 15:22

downsizer wrote:IX(B) and 12 are the Sqns in question. 12 working with the Qataris.


I don't think 12 uses the Tranche 1s though, does it...? Since the Qataris are obviously getting the latest standard machines, it would seem pretty awkward. I'm guessing that the Tranche 1s are used in Coningsby by whoever is training / mounting QRA and Falklands duties at the time...
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby serge750 » 09 Nov 2019, 18:06

Timmymagic wrote:Looks like Germany/Airbus are also starting to look at Typhoon as a replacement for the Tornado ECR. Looks like it will require additional pylons plumbed for tanks in this configuration......and they've added Spear-EW....suspect this is just speculative, but is it signalling German interest? Surprised they didn't have AARGM on it due to Italian usage and German interest.



As said before it does seem like the UK could do with this capability & the industrial advantages wouldn't hurt either, or is this sort of tech going to be part of project Tempest ?

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 09 Nov 2019, 18:32

serge750 wrote:As said before it does seem like the UK could do with this capability & the industrial advantages wouldn't hurt either, or is this sort of tech going to be part of project Tempest ?


Most of the major components on the proposed Typhoon ECR will come from Leonardo UK and MBDA UK. The radar, Spear EW, large parts of Praetorian DASS and I suspect the majority of any stand off jammer pods.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Dahedd » 09 Nov 2019, 19:14

Surely conformal tanks make more sense than 2 small tanks on the wings. Something like a Growler should be a no brainer for the RAF.


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