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Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 04 Dec 2018, 15:08

Timmymagic wrote:I suspect Italy is nailed on for Tempest due to the Typhoon/F--35 mix and Leonardo

Yes, Leonardo, sensors, radars...
They also have a private consortium with Norway, to open up the F-35 "mission files" for their independent use, rather than owned 100% by the Pentagon or LM (no one knows yet by which one)
Timmymagic wrote:But the Netherlands makes no real sense...

I think they feel hard done by after pledging very good assets into the Thales consortium... and as per the neighbouring country's SABENA( Such A Bloody Experience Never Again) don't want a repeat - going down in flames. F-35 work share will only last for so long.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Timmymagic » 04 Dec 2018, 15:56

ArmChairCivvy wrote:SABENA( Such A Bloody Experience Never Again) don't want a repeat - going down in flames. F-35 work share will only last for so long.


But would they buy any? The F-35 buy means they're not in the market for an aircraft anytime soon.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 04 Dec 2018, 16:13

Timmymagic wrote:But would they buy any?


Are we (necessarily) going to buy any?
- a way to put a stake in the ground, and claim some decision independence (+workshare) further out

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby shark bait » 04 Dec 2018, 16:38

Italy; the only other nation to operate the same 4 aircraft as the RAF over the last decade, they are possibly the most natural partner for Tempest. If the Sweed's and another can be brought on board it could be a real good'un
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 04 Dec 2018, 18:38

shark bait wrote: and another
were that to be Japan, then the whole equation would start to work
- as there is the overlap through MBDA on the "systems, sensors & comms" with the Franco-German project, as a minimum
- putting them on two different airframes would be a good "risk insurance", not to mention the "political sweetness" of it, with more to share

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SKB » 04 Dec 2018, 20:16

can we drop the (Project Tempest) name from the thread title please. There isn't a plane called Tempest coming.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby RetroSicotte » 05 Dec 2018, 08:40

SKB wrote:can we drop the (Project Tempest) name from the thread title please. There isn't a plane called Tempest coming.

I believe we'll keep the title there in brackets. One way or another, it's become the popularly known title of this entire program, and is what most people know it best by at this point. For ease of use for those coming in who are not 100% aware of every little detail and exact nuance; it helps direct them to the correct thread.

It being separated in brackets is enough to make it clear that it's not the primary name.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 05 Dec 2018, 08:51

RetroSicotte wrote:
SKB wrote:can we drop the (Project Tempest) name from the thread title please. There isn't a plane called Tempest coming.

I believe we'll keep the title there in brackets. One way or another, it's become the popularly known title of this entire program, and is what most people know it best by at this point. For ease of use for those coming in who are not 100% aware of every little detail and exact nuance; it helps direct them to the correct thread.

It being separated in brackets is enough to make it clear that it's not the primary name.


We should have a "gripes and moans" thread, for light entertainment :D . I could even contribute, about the legality of scraping context raw, from other sources, without any comment on it. In a discussion forum the latter is allowed by internet convention, whereas the former is strictly illegal.

In this case raised, Combat Air Strategy includes funding (time limited, but can of course be renewed) for Team Tempest.
- Team Tempest can, amongst themselves, raise projects for co-operation, or simply bring technology to the table to be informally developed further, perhaps in the form of integration
- there is a Gvmnt mandated project, amongst these others, though. It is called Project Pyramid, and explained upthread.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Lord Jim » 08 Dec 2018, 00:21

TO be honest anyone coming who is not up to speed on defence matters will not be directed by any reference to "Team Tempest". They are mire likely to see the word "Future" and have an opinion. "Team Tempest" has nothing really to do with a future platform, as pointed out that is being done under a much broader programme, in fact the whole thig was really a PR platform for the Government and MoD to test the waters of future partnerships and show that the UK was investing in future technology with however only a small financial investment. The UK is not going to have a new manned platform until the end of the 2040s at the earliest, and Typhoon will soldier on until then evolving over time. Simply look how long the F-16 has be relevant as a good example and how its capabilities have evolved, and how many years it still has ahead of it.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 08 Dec 2018, 04:44

Lord Jim wrote:in fact the whole thig was really a PR platform for the Government and MoD to test the waters of future partnerships and show that the UK was investing in future technology with however only a small financial investment.


Very true. There must be something coming out of it as the Gvmnt (Gavin) chose to announce it when the prgrm was already 2/3 through its (first?) time limit.
- also that signalling effect (very close proximity in time with the Japanese announcing they are not going ahead on their own as was at first planned) so that the Franco-German project will not be allowed to steal all attention

Funny that, how the money (£2 bn, not moth but inflation bitten though) is the same as in the "future a/c" line item that was cancelled when we decided to invest into the F-35 prgrm.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby shark bait » 10 Dec 2018, 08:54

SKB wrote:There isn't a plane called Tempest coming.

Lord Jim wrote:"Team Tempest" has nothing really to do with a future platform


Not really true.

Yes, it is starting as technology initiative, but the core is a new combat aircraft, and certain RAF types have said that Tempest will be flying alongside Typhoon and F-35 by 2035 (possibly to replace F35)
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SW1 » 10 Dec 2018, 10:23

It’s being run thru the Rapid capabilities office, the plan certainly is to produce an airframe to start replacing typhoon tranche 1 a/c in the early 2030s. But main investment decision is probably reserved for sdsr 2020! If no money turns up who knows what will happen!

It also encompass systems and sensor development that can be integrated onto existing platforms and then ported over helmets radars cockpit stuff, pods weapons, countermeasures support contracts ect its more than just an airframe!

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 10 Dec 2018, 11:51

SW1 wrote:also encompass systems and sensor development


Isn't that 'also' the other way round?
- that is what is covered (+the integration architecture) by the funding for the 1st 2 yrs
- and any of the future extensions could ' also'...

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SW1 » 10 Dec 2018, 19:06

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
SW1 wrote:also encompass systems and sensor development


Isn't that 'also' the other way round?
- that is what is covered (+the integration architecture) by the funding for the 1st 2 yrs
- and any of the future extensions could ' also'...


Yes I suppose it could be seen that way too.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 10 Dec 2018, 20:01

SW1 wrote:Yes I suppose it could be seen that way too.


You know more about this than me, anyway
- it is all about trying to be a "Kremnilogist" around facts that are only released as "atoms, rather than molecules"
- I've had a lot of practice (had to learn a language... not English... and all that Sh@t) :( to be able to do it

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Lord Jim » 10 Dec 2018, 20:37

There are quite a lot of "Certain" RAF types these days who would have the RAF operating B"s if they had the chance. The RAF has a huge "Wish List", of capabilities and platforms it would like and indeed there is an argument for some of these, but Tempest generation an in service platform by 2035 in pie in the sky, a technology demonstrator showing the integration of the systems developed maybe. The Tranche 1 Typhoons are planned to go as soon as sufficient F-35s are available, with the RAF only retaining a maximum of nine fast jet squadrons. This is better than the six or seven planned a few years back. Initially it will be 2/3 Typhoon 1/3 F-35 and then around late 2020s the ratios will be reversed. The Typhoons will serve well into the 2030s and a comparison can be made with the service life of the F-16. It will still be a very viable platform even after over 20 years of service. It will be funding that drives all of the above. The composition of the RAFs fast jet fleet as planned is more than capable of meeting its commitments over this time period and so the RAF has little in the way of ammunition to request funding for an actually new front line manned fighter. Whether it can make an argument for a low vis UCAV to compliment the F-35 as well as possibly supplement the Protectors or even replacing them is another matter. The RAF has other capabilities it needs to maintain that are a higher priority as well has the needs of the other two services, especially the Army that has a huge re-equipment plan required after decades of underinvestment.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SW1 » 10 Dec 2018, 21:09

Lord Jim wrote:The Tranche 1 Typhoons are planned to go as soon as sufficient F-35s are available, with the RAF only retaining a maximum of nine fast jet squadrons. This is better than the six or seven planned a few years back. Initially it will be 2/3 Typhoon 1/3 F-35 and then around late 2020s the ratios will be reversed


If they go ahead with additional f35 buys I can see that but not what the current mood music suggests.I don’t see the split changing anytime soon for a number of reasons and if tempest gets the go ahead it will be a direct typhoon replacement.

https://www.janes.com/article/84058/raf ... e-in-2030s

“A senior RAF officer told Jane's that the service "hoped to get the first Tempest aircraft into service in the early 2030s to begin replacing the first Tranche 1 Typhoons when they near the end of their 25-year service life".

We don’t yet know publicly what a proposed new manned a/c will look like but the planning is to have one due mainly to national industrial workforce and skills protection. If the money isn’t there and there doesn’t appear to be any room for any new fastjet purchases this side of 2030 then things may change. A new batch of typhoon with a significant number of “6th gen” sensors and capabilities could happen.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 10 Dec 2018, 22:19

Lord Jim wrote:Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Unread postby Lord Jim » 10 Dec 2018, 20:37
There are quite a lot of "Certain" RAF types


Hello, Lordie-lord; can I make one request (not averse in any way to conversing over this medium):

As the paragraphs are being / have been lost progressively, over the years, I can only presume that you are making the contributions by talking to the PC/ computer.
- the software has a 'facility' for saying 'a paragraph'
- sorry to be so prescriptive; I am not a 'Besser-Wisser' even though at times 'it' may come across :) as if I were
... Ron can tell you about it; if you were ever to meet up in a bar :lol:

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Lord Jim » 11 Dec 2018, 03:58

I am actually typing all this, but do get a bit carried away and the grammar etc. sort of goes by the way side. Only got a 'C' in O Level English but an 'A' in History. Will try to break my posts up more in future especially the long ones.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby shark bait » 11 Dec 2018, 08:12

Lord Jim wrote:but Tempest generation an in service platform by 2035 in pie in the sky


There is no engineering challenge that prohibits a <15 year development, commercial aerospace companies can deliver new aircraft within that time line, even defence contractors can deliver demonstrators in a couple of years. The problem is when the military and political types get involved and blow the project out of reality.

If the RAF can show a little restraint on tempest, like reusing Typhoons engine, radar and other systems, they can keep the project manageable and deliver it in the early 30's
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Lord Jim » 11 Dec 2018, 09:02

But why do the RAF need it. Sure if the aim to maintain the UK aerospace industry the let that be publicly stated as the reason behind Tempest, because the RAF will not need a new manned combat platform within this timescale, F-35 and Typhoon sill be able to do anything the RAF needs to.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 11 Dec 2018, 10:25

Lord Jim wrote:an 'A' in History
far more important :!:
shark bait wrote:reusing Typhoons engine, radar
I am pretty sure these working assumptions have been pencilled in
- what was interesting in evidence given by the head of DE&S is that there are actually three different models of Captor-E (and the RAF has not decided, yet, which one to go for)
- so it is developing in leaps and bounds without even having entered service

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby shark bait » 11 Dec 2018, 10:55

Lord Jim wrote:But why do the RAF need it.

Why do the RAF need a combat aircraft? Strange question.

In 15 years typhoon will start showing its age, and the F35 will never be a penetrating air superiority fighter.

ArmChairCivvy wrote:I am pretty sure these working assumptions have been pencilled in

Is it? I've seen mixed messages regarding the engine. The EJ200 has some performance headroom left to be exploited, so it probably could survive another generation.

It may be worth designing in some wiggle room into the new platform so a new engine could be added mid life.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby bobp » 11 Dec 2018, 10:56

ArmChairCivvy wrote: DE&S is that there are actually three different models of Captor-E



I understand one of the versions has built in Electronic Warfare modes, possibly the version the RAF is seeking.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby shark bait » 11 Dec 2018, 11:02

Captor-E has been drawn out so long it's no longer at the bleeding edge, it will likely be an export only option, with the RAF and I think Italy pushing for an incremental upgrade over the 'Kuwait standard', which will include greater EW capabilities.
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