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Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
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shark bait
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby shark bait » 08 Jan 2020, 14:53

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Why not have a B-2 like highly stealthy plane, with an intercontinental range/ endurance as a hub and then robo-fighters (rather than 'wingmen') doing circuits around it, at a distance?

I would be willing to bet that will happen in a couple of decades, and I feel its a bit too much of a jump to happen on this next round. Perhaps we'll see the Americans experimenting with their B21.


cky7 wrote:Is the worry about something too long legged that it’s gonna make it too costly to buy/run?

The other option is low observable and more survivable tanker, which will skyrocket costs. If the RAF want to operate inside a modern air defence network they need higher endurance aircraft. (side note, so do the Navy!)
@LandSharkUK

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 08 Jan 2020, 15:12

shark bait wrote:would be willing to bet that will happen in a couple of decades


2040... the OSD for the currently more modern Typhoons
... there is nothing the say that there would not be even 'more modern' Typhoons joining the ranks

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Lord Jim » 08 Jan 2020, 19:01

ArmChairCivvy wrote:there is nothing the say that there would not be even 'more modern' Typhoons joining the ranks

Just look at the developmental path the F-16 has followed and still is with the F-16V still winning orders, both for new build and for upgrades. If we manage the Typhoon fleet well, it could be in service beyond 2040.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Ron5 » 09 Jan 2020, 16:21

SW1 wrote:workshare on f35 was not based on order commitments, it was based the percentage of funding each country provided during the development phase. The UK provided the most and such at the beginning uk companies had a big share of the work. As time has gone on more countries came on to the program uk work has moved to other countries and to RR and BAE’s US divisions and development works have concluded in some areas.


Utter rubbish. There was, and is, no notion of national work shares in the F-35 program outside of your fertile imagination.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Lord Jim » 20 Jan 2020, 06:24

Well this must raise a few eye brows, according to the Daily Mail, the platform the results from the Tempest programme is to be on able to travel at hypersonic speeds!!!!!

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby inch » 20 Jan 2020, 09:02

Is that all thought they were trying for warp speed , rubbish?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Little J » 20 Jan 2020, 09:21


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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Timmymagic » 20 Jan 2020, 13:05

Little J wrote:https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... 00mph.html
To go with the above...


It's up there with the 5 inch gun....

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby jimthelad » 20 Jan 2020, 18:04

I think they are referring to the EJ2000 engine with the Sabre precooler trial. That could in theory reach M3+.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Ron5 » 20 Jan 2020, 18:30

Bitch, bitch, bitch. At least it would have a point unlike current plans which seem to be focused on building a British F-35 at three times the price.

Ooooo yeah, I said it. The emperor has no clothes.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SKB » 20 Jan 2020, 18:51

Hypersonic = Mach 5+

inch
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby inch » 20 Jan 2020, 18:57

Aye think they got their wires crossed somehow or just a load of balloni

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Jake1992 » 21 Jan 2020, 08:21

I thought the talk of hypersonic was around missiles to be developed for use on tempest no the plane itself.

IMO if tempest could hit Mach 3 odd while keeping good movability and decent range and payload would be an out come

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Timmymagic » 21 Jan 2020, 10:06

Jake1992 wrote:I thought the talk of hypersonic was around missiles to be developed for use on tempest no the plane itself.

IMO if tempest could hit Mach 3 odd while keeping good movability and decent range and payload would be an out come


Some idiot at the Daily Mail has seen Tempest, seen the Rolls Royce work on high tech engines, then read the detail around experimental use of the Reaction Engines pre-cooler using the EJ-200, then gone to Reaction Engines website and put 1+1+1+1 together and got 25.....

Tempest is not going to travel at 4,000 mph or even Mach 3. The aerodynamic requirements (and cost) for that would be in direct opposition to a lot of the programme goals.

In terms of speed for Tempest expect an incremental approach from the Typhoon. They'll possibly be looking for even higher sustained supercruise with fuel and weapons, as that is seen as a massive advantage (and it is). I suspect there will be a lot of focus on range as well.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 21 Jan 2020, 17:32

Timmymagic wrote:and put 1+1+1+1 together and got 25.....



That person will need to sent (most defence correspondents start this way; he/ she may be one of the greats... later) to this conference, which befittingly takes place over a 3-day period... within which ... falls the 1st of April Fools' Day :lol:


With General Milley’s participation, he joins a prestigious line-up of Hypersonic leaders :) that includes:

The Honorable Ellen M. Lord , Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition and Sustainment, Office of the Secretary of Defense
General Timothy Ray, Commander, Air Force Global Strike Command, Secretary of the Air Force
Vice Admiral Johnny R. Wolfe, Jr, USA, Director, Strategic Systems Program, US Navy
Mike E. White, SES, Assistant Director, Hypersonics, Under Secretary of Defense for Research and Engineering
Robert K. Strider, SES, Deputy Director, Army Rapid Capabilities and Critical Technologies Office

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SW1 » 04 Feb 2020, 23:13

https://www.flightglobal.com/military-u ... 32.article

The US Navy (USN) flew two Boeing EA-18G Growlers as autonomous unmanned air vehicles (UAVs), using a third Growler as a flight controller.

In total, four flights were conducted at Naval Air Station Patuxent River, with tests starting in September 2019, says manufacturer Boeing on 4 February. The aircraft demonstrated 21 missions during flights that took place toward the end of 2019, says Boeing. The type of missions were not disclosed.

The flights are a forerunner to using the EA-18G as a mission-controlling platform for autonomous Loyal Wingman UAVs. Unmmaned-manned teaming is a new US Department of Defense concept in aerial combat where some work would be offloaded to UAVs, especially dangerous missions.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 05 Feb 2020, 05:05

SW1 wrote: Unmmaned-manned teaming is a new US Department of Defense concept in aerial combat where some work would be offloaded to UAVs, especially dangerous missions.

How new is that as the B-21 Raider was meant to have an unmanned wingman: recce ahead, confuse defences; check afterwards whether 'the job' got done?
- clearly the wingman could not have an intercontinental range (in order to be considered 'dispensable')
- so it would have to be carrier launched
... but that concept turned into a tanker (well; Growlers are carrier launched :idea: )

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SW1 » 05 Feb 2020, 10:46

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
SW1 wrote: Unmmaned-manned teaming is a new US Department of Defense concept in aerial combat where some work would be offloaded to UAVs, especially dangerous missions.

How new is that as the B-21 Raider was meant to have an unmanned wingman: recce ahead, confuse defences; check afterwards whether 'the job' got done?
- clearly the wingman could not have an intercontinental range (in order to be considered 'dispensable')
- so it would have to be carrier launched
... but that concept turned into a tanker (well; Growlers are carrier launched :idea: )


I mentioned this long ago in another place but using things like protector in more benign environments teaming with larger istar platforms like sentinel and in more dangerous environments with a 2 seat fast jet something like avenger could have been a central pillar of sdsr15 that allowed significant contributions from many uk specialists in sensors and weapons as well as investing with general atomic In setting up a european wide assembly and integration facility in the uk. Fast fwd 5 years and most of that opportunity is gone with those platforms, it’s possible an investment in a loyal wingman uav similar to what kratos offers much potiential with the ability to launch such UAVs from army trucks that have moved to fwd positions or from containers on flat decks from ships at sea.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 05 Feb 2020, 12:46

SW1 wrote: Fast fwd 5 years and most of that opportunity is gone


Name of the game (if we have strat thinkers and tech geeks separately... we will never catch up :( )

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SKB » 07 Feb 2020, 07:44


(Forces TV) 30th January 2020
Britain is operating its most advanced fifth-generation fighter jet ever - the F-35B. But the quest to stay ahead of the game never stops. The Tempest project is researching some of the key technologies that could be part of Britain’s next-generation aircraft. Mind-reading flight systems and artificial intelligence are among the concepts that could deliver air combat in 2030, 2040 and beyond.



(Forces TV) 6th February 2020
Virtual cockpits and drones for wingmen are just some of the options being looked at for Britain’s next-generation fighter jet. The Tempest project, a joint venture between five defence companies, aims to give the UK a cutting edge in air combat by 2035. But a potential skills gap and not quite knowing what such a plane might look like pose potential problems.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Timmymagic » 08 Feb 2020, 16:26

Nothing major, but some slight delays and issues with sorting out the arrangements.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... out-spain/

This paragraph at the end is a little confusing though..

"A section on risks points to a competing European fighter project led by the U.K., known as Tempest, to which Italy has signed on. The German government sees that development as an impetus to drum up additional FCAS support throughout Europe soon, the Defence Ministry told lawmakers."

I can't for the life of me see where 'additional FCAS support' will come from within Europe. The partner nations will not be looking for industrial partners in Europe unless they're buying FCAS. And there is no-one left who will. They're either in Tempest, are buying F-35 already or will do in due course (Greece) or they're not in the market for a high end combat aircraft and likely never will be. The only possible conclusion is that its PESCO funds, but they're nailed on already with France and Germany onboard.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Ron5 » 08 Feb 2020, 17:43

Perhaps they are saying that other European countries will be hesitant to signing up for the Franco/German fighter right now if there is a credible competitor. Why not wait and make the decision later after seeing which is the better deal?

Don't forget Tempest has two partners within the EEC so has equal "European" credentials :D

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby dmereifield » 08 Feb 2020, 20:48

Ron5 wrote:Perhaps they are saying that other European countries will be hesitant to signing up for the Franco/German fighter right now if there is a credible competitor. Why not wait and make the decision later after seeing which is the better deal?

Don't forget Tempest has two partners within the EEC so has equal "European" credentials :D


What are the redeeming features of the Franco-German programme for prospective partners? All I can see is the negatives. The fighter needs to be carrier capable for the French despite no other partners requiring such a feature, the French and Germans have been adamant that they don't want to dilute their control of the project, Germany will demand a disproportionate workshare than their order warrants, and the Germans will jeopardise potential sales...why would any nation want to get involved?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 09 Feb 2020, 09:22

Ron5 wrote:Don't forget Tempest has two partners within the EEC so has equal "European" credentials


Well not quite (as nothing further has been agreed after the intent included in the Political Declaration):

"Although companies in member states receiving EDF funding can cooperate with third-party entities (for example, with a business based outside the EU supplying parts or services crucial to a project), the costs of these activities will not be eligible for EU funding.

These rules on intellectual property and third-party control are hurdles for the UK. Intellectual property is a driver of shareholder value and a sovereignty concern, and an inability to retain control of this element decreases the utility and attractiveness of the EDF to UK companies.

Despite these restrictions, the Political Declaration setting out the framework for the future relationship between the EU and the UK, as it stands, states that both parties agree to ‘enable to the extent possible under the conditions of Union law’ the UK defence industry’s participation in the EDF."
- one could even see the setting up of Tempest as a bargaining chip (in this context)
- of course, if Japan comes on board the game will change from softball to basket ball (LM normally plays with Ozzie rules, and most of the time gets away with it)

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Timmymagic » 09 Feb 2020, 12:09

Ron5 wrote:Perhaps they are saying that other European countries will be hesitant to signing up for the Franco/German fighter right now if there is a credible competitor. Why not wait and make the decision later after seeing which is the better deal?


That's the thing. There are no European countries left to get involved. Given the size of defence budgets and where countries are with their procurements of combat aircraft for the next 30 years there is no-one left at all. They're all already in Tempest or FCAS or have totally committed to F-35, which means they have no need to even think about a replacement until 2050 at the earliest. THe only remaining countries are ones without combat aircraft or who could never be interested in anything beyond a Gripen at most, and in tiny numbers.


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