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Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Timmymagic
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Timmymagic » 02 Dec 2019, 20:53

Ron5 wrote:The Japanese defense ministry’s studies point to a need for a very big fighter with an empty weight well above 20 metric tons (40,000 lb.), larger than the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor. Superior endurance and internal weapon capacity are the key factors behind this choice.

No western European country has operated a fighter more than about two-thirds as big, but Storr said a large configuration for the Tempest cannot be ruled out. The mockup exhibited at the 2018 Farnborough International Airshow was bigger than the F-22.

Still, the UK and other European partners might want a much smaller fighter; concept designs that have not been shown are not as big as the mockup. But the concept for cooperation would allow for Japan to devise its own airframe while, for example, using the same engine and some weapons, software and avionics as other partners. The architecture of the software is intended to be open, accepting different programs easily.


It is behind a paywall, so many thanks for posting.

I actually hope we go with a larger aircraft. I know the 'steel is cheap and air is free' mantra from shipbuilding doesn't apply to aircraft. But there is a lot to be said for space, particularly in regard to payload bays, range and the inevitable additional systems that are added in an aircrafts lifetime. With an LO design there just isn't the option of sticking some new protuberances on the outside like we've done for time immemorial, there needs to be some spare space left for upgrades. It might be there is a slight fuel penalty to be paid (same as with the ships) but the cost of upgrading pays for itself in the end. Pretty sure the F-22 and F-35 designers would go back and design in bigger bays if they could as well.

Also the Japanese as an island nation have a huge area to patrol and protect. Their strategic position is obviously different with the proximity of both Russia, China and North Korea (let alone their differences with South Korea) but we both have large ADIZ's to patrol and protect with enemies who have long range bombers and missiles.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SW1 » 02 Dec 2019, 21:25

Timmymagic wrote:I actually hope we go with a larger aircraft. I know the 'steel is cheap and air is free' mantra from shipbuilding doesn't apply to aircraft. But there is a lot to be said for space, particularly in regard to payload bays, range and the inevitable additional systems that are added in an aircrafts lifetime. With an LO design there just isn't the option of sticking some new protuberances on the outside like we've done for time immemorial, there needs to be some spare space left for upgrades. It might be there is a slight fuel penalty to be paid (same as with the ships) but the cost of upgrading pays for itself in the end. Pretty sure the F-22 and F-35 designers would go back and design in bigger bays if they could as well.


The article reads like a Japanese play to be involved with next generation USAF fighter proposals.

The cost v weight curve for aircraft is exponential. Big aircraft get expensive quickly and it’s got little to do with a fuel penalty. Affordability will be of critical importance. Within a system of systems what needs to low observable to what degree and in which spectrums. The trend in weapons and sensors is to shrink in size. Power management will be much more of an issue.

It will be much more likely that ease to integrate and upgrade, maintainability, simplicity of operation and sovereignty of systems will be of high priority.

If you think the main adversary is long range bombers and missiles then requirements on an airframe would relax quite a bit from even current types back towards a F3.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Ron5 » 02 Dec 2019, 23:25

It's not often you see so much nonsense crammed into one post.

Japan wasn't even allowed to buy f-22s, so why on earth would anyone think they would be permitted to become a development partner for its successor?

The trend in tactical aircraft size is up not down. Individual sensors and weapons may be geting smaller but more need to be carried and carried internally.

A comeback for the F3? God help us all.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 03 Dec 2019, 05:50

SW1 wrote:It will be much more likely that ease to integrate and upgrade, maintainability, simplicity of operation and sovereignty of systems will be of high priority.

yep

Program flexibility offers a path to Japanese participation

Even the airframe could be different
... which is what the Swedes are thinking, on their part

Ron5 wrote:Japan wasn't even allowed to buy f-22s, so why on earth would anyone think they would be permitted to become a development partner for its successor?
At the time not many thought that China would have an operational stealth fighter by now
- it is worthwhile to check how the USAF wants to see development time frames radically compressed. Japan could be the Tier1 partner (he-heh, how much say have we had, after being lured in with the "unique"status) to help with that goal as it will be as much about sharing the risk as about anything else; like our transfer of V/STOL technology did in getting F-35 started. How much of the $2bn initial "fee" did we actually pay 'in cash'?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SW1 » 03 Dec 2019, 07:53

Ron5 wrote:It's not often you see so much nonsense crammed into one post.

Japan wasn't even allowed to buy f-22s, so why on earth would anyone think they would be permitted to become a development partner for its successor?

The trend in tactical aircraft size is up not down. Individual sensors and weapons may be geting smaller but more need to be carried and carried internally.

A comeback for the F3? God help us all.


The less you post the less nonsense that’s usually around to read.

The Japanese have actively been attempting to become a full partner on f35 for a while, which has been resisted by the US on the basis that other non partners would want similar status and that it would be to complicated at this stage of the program.

It’s hardly a stretch to suggest there now actively trying to gain access at an early stage to the next program based on putting out ideas around a fighter of there own.

To a point tactical aircraft have got bigger in that the very small ones have disappeared for some airforces but size of tactical aircraft have remained roughly the same for most major airforces. If there is a drive for affordability then size will be constrained or numbers will drop.

I was not the one suggesting longer range bombers or missiles were the only threat but if that’s what you consider it to be then there’s nothing wrong with a F3 in that role.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby jimthelad » 03 Dec 2019, 19:48

The F3 caused a lot of upsets at Red Flag in it's last iteration. Death in the valley became it's unofficial nickname .

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Ron5 » 04 Dec 2019, 00:56

jimthelad wrote:The F3 caused a lot of upsets at Red Flag in it's last iteration. Death in the valley became it's unofficial nickname .


Ha ha ha ha, please stop, you're killing me, ha ha ha ha

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Ron5 » 04 Dec 2019, 01:02

SW1 wrote:
Ron5 wrote:It's not often you see so much nonsense crammed into one post.

Japan wasn't even allowed to buy f-22s, so why on earth would anyone think they would be permitted to become a development partner for its successor?

The trend in tactical aircraft size is up not down. Individual sensors and weapons may be geting smaller but more need to be carried and carried internally.

A comeback for the F3? God help us all.


The less you post the less nonsense that’s usually around to read.

The Japanese have actively been attempting to become a full partner on f35 for a while, which has been resisted by the US on the basis that other non partners would want similar status and that it would be to complicated at this stage of the program.

It’s hardly a stretch to suggest there now actively trying to gain access at an early stage to the next program based on putting out ideas around a fighter of there own.

To a point tactical aircraft have got bigger in that the very small ones have disappeared for some airforces but size of tactical aircraft have remained roughly the same for most major airforces. If there is a drive for affordability then size will be constrained or numbers will drop.

I was not the one suggesting longer range bombers or missiles were the only threat but if that’s what you consider it to be then there’s nothing wrong with a F3 in that role.


So the US said no again. And that indicates they're more willing? Say what?

Wake up and look around you, tactical aircraft are getting bigger. Compare f-35 to your beloved jaguar or the vastly superior f-16 which the RAF really wanted.

The F-3 was a Turkey. End of.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SW1 » 04 Dec 2019, 07:41

Ron5 wrote:Wake up and look around you, tactical aircraft are getting bigger. Compare f-35 to your beloved jaguar or the vastly superior f-16 which the RAF really wanted.


Buccaneer, phantom, tornado, typhoon, f35

Or your beloved us navy

Phantom, a6, f14, super hornet, f35.

I’m well awake not that much of a difference.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Ron5 » 04 Dec 2019, 16:41

So conceded that Japan getting a slice of the f-22 replacement is nonsense and that the f3 was a turkey.

Baby steps but progress.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SW1 » 04 Dec 2019, 17:05

Ron5 wrote:So conceded that Japan getting a slice of the f-22 replacement is nonsense and that the f3 was a turkey.

Baby steps but progress.


Nope

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Lord Jim » 04 Dec 2019, 18:43

I suppose, as suggested, Japan could take an interest in TEMPEST, with an eye to using some of the systems developed rather than the actual platform. Maybe they could be tempted by the latest planned Typhoon variant, built in Japan, to supplement the Super Eagles they are working on to give them a breathing space and then they could look at whatever platform comes from TEMPEST having had a hand in the development of its systems and have a production line in country. They are not really interested in exports so could even develop some bespoke items.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 04 Dec 2019, 20:15

Lord Jim wrote: to supplement the Super Eagles they are working on


Are they on it, too?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby jimthelad » 04 Dec 2019, 22:52

Plenty of Awacs crews and F15 drivers would disagree. The last few red flags had F3 achieving the highest kill ratios. hard to track something doing M0.9at 100 feet with JTIDS cueing the Amraam (the only western fighter until F35 to do this) and radar silent. Most kills on the opposition air were from behind (they had ingressed to behind the counter air assets). Ron, check your facts next time.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Ron5 » 04 Dec 2019, 23:30

I am 100% confident no US military guy or gal, living or dead, would ever call anything the "death in the desert". Bagdad Bob on the other hand ...

I suspect your "facts" eminate from one of the uk spotter mags written by the likes of jon lake & co. Or maybe your jaguar driving neighbor.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Lord Jim » 05 Dec 2019, 15:43

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Are they on it, too?


Yes, they are upgrading a portion of their fleet with AESA Radars and so on, in a similar vain to what the USAF is doing to a number of the C/D/E variants. They are only carrying out work on their single seat models though.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby jimthelad » 05 Dec 2019, 22:45

Actually a retired USAF Lt Col and F15 driver. It caused such problems that they had to conduct low level visual and radar searches using F16's. This worked for the first few sorties (the radar being in look up mode )until the F3 crews went even lower. As for superlatives, I believe the US corners the market. But hell, what would I know, certainly Benning was an eye opener for team pep talks and such. As Buchan Farm boy I was more used to the 'fuckin get things done' kind of chat.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Ron5 » 06 Dec 2019, 20:35

jimthelad wrote:Actually a retired USAF Lt Col and F15 driver. It caused such problems that they had to conduct low level visual and radar searches using F16's. This worked for the first few sorties (the radar being in look up mode )until the F3 crews went even lower. As for superlatives, I believe the US corners the market. But hell, what would I know, certainly Benning was an eye opener for team pep talks and such. As Buchan Farm boy I was more used to the 'fuckin get things done' kind of chat.


Put down the wacky weed, no usaf col called anything "death in the desert".

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Lord Jim » 06 Dec 2019, 22:24

Are you both talking about the Tornado F3?! I have heard stories about F3s going low under the opposition to try to get kills on the AWACS by going vertical almost underneath it, but put that down to Mess chat after a few. The F3 wasn't that bad once the radar was fixed and it got AMRAAM and ASRAAM, it final became the platform it was supposed to be, a long range, high endurance, bomber killer, able to stop enemy aircraft from getting close enough to launch stand off missiles at the UK. But any success at any Flag would be down to the pilots skill and them thinking outside the box, rather than the plane. Then again at the same time the Luftwaffe were still flying their upgrades Phantom F-4Fs and they performed better than expected.

Anyhow enough of the past, we are supposed to talking about the future here aren't we.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby jimthelad » 07 Dec 2019, 18:23

Not a fan of funny looking tomato plants. LJ is perfectly correct, it was tactics , skill, bravery, and innovation which allowed the F3 to perform well. It was used in a role never envisaged against technically superior aircraft but surprised those detractors. As for the US light Bird, if he wishes to comment I'm sure he'll post but I suspect he has better things to do, he at least doesn't have the overarching moronic 'merica best attitude. And yes we really should be talking about the future of an exciting program.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Monty1985 » 08 Dec 2019, 15:39

As others had mentioned the Tornado F3 was a perfectly capable platform for it's designed purpose. A high speed, high altitude bomber interceptor, it was never intended to 'turn n burn' with conventional fighter aircraft so it's a testament to it's pilots and crews who ensured they were able to punch well above their weight at exercises such as Reg Flag. A F-15 it ain't but labelling the F3 as a turkey is disingenuous at best and plain ignorant at worst.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Ron5 » 08 Dec 2019, 17:00

I feel truly humbled having my ignorance of such a fine machine so cruelly exposed. How will the world's air forces handle their embarrassment for similarly fallen into the yankee web of deceipt by buying f-15s by the hundreds.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Monty1985 » 08 Dec 2019, 21:28

Ron5 wrote:I feel truly humbled having my ignorance of such a fine machine so cruelly exposed. How will the world's air forces handle their embarrassment for similarly fallen into the yankee web of deceipt by buying f-15s by the hundreds.


No need for the melodrama. Not contesting that the F-15 isn't a fine aircraft or a superior at ACM to the Tornado F3, because it is. Though I'd argue a lot of fighter exports (the F-15 included) is primarily due to politics and cost rather than raw capability. The point I am trying to make is the F3 was a perfectly fine aircraft for it's desired purpose, and with a bit of skill on the side of it's aircrew they were able to operate the aircraft well enough outside it's design parameters to cause upsets during international exercises.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Lord Jim » 09 Dec 2019, 22:20

Ron5 wrote: How will the world's air forces handle their embarrassment for similarly fallen into the yankee web of deceipt by buying f-15s by the hundreds.
.

By buying even more smaller and lighter F-16s :D

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SW1 » 10 Dec 2019, 08:26

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.c ... 63de1d73f4

The Trump administration is pressuring Japan to choose a US defence company to develop jointly a replacement for its F-2 fighter jets as Tokyo considers a British alternative to cut its reliance on American weapons.

The US has proposed jointly developing a fighter based on the F-35 and F-22. But it would limit the use of Japanese technology, resulting in a “black box” fighter with no access to the source code required for independent upgrades — something the Japanese air force would like and many lawmakers consider essential to sovereignty.

He added the similar timeline of the Tempest made collaboration with the UK a “reasonable possibility” but the decision would depend on capability, cost and the potential for upgrades.

The decision will be up to Mr Abe, who will have to choose between independent technology and nationalist hopes or the US alliance and his prized relationship with Mr Trump.


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