Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments
Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments
How does this fit in with the re-roling of the RM to the littoral focus and future commando of less traditional light infantry tasks. Will we see the Paras do something similar in the latest review.
Will we see the units that use the multi role protected vehicles operate more like they are in Mali conducting longer range patrols is more firepower on fire support vehicles needed. Is it like Afghan were mlrs covers patrols in large areas from a central location.
Will we see the units that use the multi role protected vehicles operate more like they are in Mali conducting longer range patrols is more firepower on fire support vehicles needed. Is it like Afghan were mlrs covers patrols in large areas from a central location.
- Tempest414
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments
This is looking back to the future but would a fixed 105 gun mounted on CVR chassis work in support of 16AA if we striped the turret off a CRV and fitted a fixed open 105 gun on. It would come in at about 8.5 ton's and would be able to be air lifted by Chinook would be every quick able to shoot and scoot could even tow a ammo trailer for more rounds
Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments
Having done a little bit of digging around the inter-web I have found out some more details regarding the French Rifled 120mm Mortar I am so keen about. First in its use, both France and Italy among many other countries have taken these mortars from the Infantry Battalions that had them and formed them into Brigade Artillery Regiments for their Light, high readiness forces. Any additional Artillery support now it appears comes from Divisional level be it 155mm guns or MLRS.
From a UK perspective, a JLTV could easily tow one as well as carrying the crew and ammunition. Speaking of the later, Raytheon has developed a precision guided round for this mortar on behalf of the USMC who used it in Afghanistan. It increases the range to 16km with a CEP of between 2m and 10m. This meant targets could be suctioned with fewer rounds which had a positive impact on the logistics supporting the weapons. Of course this is just one of the type of rounds available to the Mortar. The weapon is able to come into action, carry out a fire mission and move out in only a few minutes.
Also a lighter weight version has been developed to be carried in medium weight platform such as the Boxer or other 8x8 or 6x6. These can be linked to a FCS similar to the one used on the Cardona 120mm Mortar which is pretty clever, knowing where it is at all times. You just need to input the target co-ordinated and the Mortar automatically lays onto the target using in built servo motors in all three dimensions rapidly speeding up the time taken to carry out a fire mission.
Speaking of Mortars and Boxer though, the latest video of the Patria Nemo mortar system shows that it can now conduct fire missions on the move without any loss of accuracy, surely this is now a case of no longer being "Shoot and scoot", but rather "Scoot and shoot"!
From a UK perspective, a JLTV could easily tow one as well as carrying the crew and ammunition. Speaking of the later, Raytheon has developed a precision guided round for this mortar on behalf of the USMC who used it in Afghanistan. It increases the range to 16km with a CEP of between 2m and 10m. This meant targets could be suctioned with fewer rounds which had a positive impact on the logistics supporting the weapons. Of course this is just one of the type of rounds available to the Mortar. The weapon is able to come into action, carry out a fire mission and move out in only a few minutes.
Also a lighter weight version has been developed to be carried in medium weight platform such as the Boxer or other 8x8 or 6x6. These can be linked to a FCS similar to the one used on the Cardona 120mm Mortar which is pretty clever, knowing where it is at all times. You just need to input the target co-ordinated and the Mortar automatically lays onto the target using in built servo motors in all three dimensions rapidly speeding up the time taken to carry out a fire mission.
Speaking of Mortars and Boxer though, the latest video of the Patria Nemo mortar system shows that it can now conduct fire missions on the move without any loss of accuracy, surely this is now a case of no longer being "Shoot and scoot", but rather "Scoot and shoot"!
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments
The latest (=ancient) air-liftable, fixed gun system was the ASU-85 (mm) at that weight, and what they now have in that role (Sprut) has more than twice that weightTempest414 wrote: It would come in at about 8.5 ton's
- which, again, is not far off where Scimitar2 ended up in weight, with a much smaller gun
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments
Any bump in the road 'mis'lays the mortar for that round.Lord Jim wrote:the latest video of the Patria Nemo mortar system shows that it can now conduct fire missions on the move without any loss of accuracy
But on the move is still a valuable capacity. Because of the autolaying (high RoF) I believe (not confirmed) that there are only three such vehicles in a battery. If you order the three to stop an infantry advance 7-8 km away while the battery is on its way to a new position, then that will surely happen, ASAP , into a 100x100 grid area
... rather than hitting every infantryman on the 'head'
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments
The Gun/Mortar is fully stabilised and can fire whilst the vehicle is going across country, just like an MBT, but with indirect fire. It is very impressive to watch. As for accuracy, well those good old boys and Gals across the pond have also developed a precision round for the smooth bore 120mm Mortar, and that can also be used on Nemo. Having 81mm Mortars in the back of FV432s is really looking like yesterdays capability,
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments
Though Strix, too, is for smootbore, there was some tweak with breach loading that became aproblem... this was so long ago that details have already 'evaporated' from the grey matterLord Jim wrote: across the pond have also developed a precision round for the smooth bore 120mm Mortar, and that can also be used on Nemo
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
- ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments
Why put mortars on fully-fledged fighting vehicles, when you can do this
24 t plus turret
half a mln a piece, before adding the turret-cum-mortar
STANAG2 level protection, before adding both weight and price for more
The same AFV could be used as a resupply vehicle for wheeled artillery (together with MAN trucks, dropping pallets here, there and everywhere... where the next fire mission might be executed from)
- 120 mm mortars will inevitably be artillery, bot infantry weapons
24 t plus turret
half a mln a piece, before adding the turret-cum-mortar
STANAG2 level protection, before adding both weight and price for more
The same AFV could be used as a resupply vehicle for wheeled artillery (together with MAN trucks, dropping pallets here, there and everywhere... where the next fire mission might be executed from)
- 120 mm mortars will inevitably be artillery, bot infantry weapons
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments
Here is the video of the Nemo doing something I do not think any other SP 120mm can do.
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments
A good one, thx. The previous post to yours, above, was about having it on a much cheaper platform, the 6x6 in the vid
- I expect that platform is also the basis (no piccies released officially yet?) for the tri-nation prgrm, with Estonia and Latvia (Lithuania went with Boxers)
- but I 'overegged' the cost point a little, as I gave the basic platform price for the PROLAB 4x4, not the Patria 6x6 which they have revealed. Though I think the other one would also work fine (and has already proceeded tru blast tests, to get the right STANAGs onto to the sales flyer )
- I expect that platform is also the basis (no piccies released officially yet?) for the tri-nation prgrm, with Estonia and Latvia (Lithuania went with Boxers)
- but I 'overegged' the cost point a little, as I gave the basic platform price for the PROLAB 4x4, not the Patria 6x6 which they have revealed. Though I think the other one would also work fine (and has already proceeded tru blast tests, to get the right STANAGs onto to the sales flyer )
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
- Tempest414
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments
I don't know about giving this to the RA I think the RA should get
Archer on MAN 8x8 with each Battery getting 6 guns
ScanEagle also on MAN 8x8 with each Battery getting 3 x launch and recovery trucks and 3 x Control and maintenance trucks and 1 refuelling truck
CAMM on MAN 8x8 with each battery getting 1 x command truck and 3 x missile trucks
this would allow a Battery or two of each to deploy with a Brigade giving fire support , 3 UAV's in the air 24/7 and Air defence
the Nemo system should on the mortar support groups Boxers or Ajax at Battalion level
Archer on MAN 8x8 with each Battery getting 6 guns
ScanEagle also on MAN 8x8 with each Battery getting 3 x launch and recovery trucks and 3 x Control and maintenance trucks and 1 refuelling truck
CAMM on MAN 8x8 with each battery getting 1 x command truck and 3 x missile trucks
this would allow a Battery or two of each to deploy with a Brigade giving fire support , 3 UAV's in the air 24/7 and Air defence
the Nemo system should on the mortar support groups Boxers or Ajax at Battalion level
Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments
We have only ordered one Regiments worth, that is three CAMM Field Batteries in total, plus those for training and a few others for other tasks.
Each Archer/MAN 8x8 also has a reload vehicle based on the MAN 8x8 platform available to it within the Battery, designed to rapidly reload a number of guns or the same gun multiple times. These would be reloaded by the MAN 8x8 Palettized Load Carriers dropping of Shells when and where needed.
Each Archer/MAN 8x8 also has a reload vehicle based on the MAN 8x8 platform available to it within the Battery, designed to rapidly reload a number of guns or the same gun multiple times. These would be reloaded by the MAN 8x8 Palettized Load Carriers dropping of Shells when and where needed.
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments
+Lord Jim wrote: rapidly reload
Rapidly, there, would seem to be out of place, if you compare pallets (Step1: Stanley knife, cut plastic open, Step 2...) with the original Archer arrangement, or the M109 Palladium working with its reloads vehicleLord Jim wrote:would be reloaded by the MAN 8x8 Palettized Load Carriers dropping
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments
Here is a reminder of what the Archer/MAN combo brings to the table. Of direct interest is the "Limber" Vehicle, also a MAN 8x8 that carries 100 rounds and refill the Archers 21 round magazine with shells and charges in five minutes automatically.
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments
For me when I look at the RA / RHA it has been left like so many parts of the army scraping by for me it needs a real rethink and I would go withLord Jim wrote:We have only ordered one Regiments worth, that is three CAMM Field Batteries in total, plus those for training and a few others for other tasks.
Each Archer/MAN 8x8 also has a reload vehicle based on the MAN 8x8 platform available to it within the Battery, designed to rapidly reload a number of guns or the same gun multiple times. These would be reloaded by the MAN 8x8 Palettized Load Carriers dropping of Shells when and where needed.
1 regt RHA with 6 Batteries of 6 AS-90 = 36 guns with 103 regt reserves with 3 Batteries of 4 AS-90 = 12 guns total 48 AS-90
3 regt RHA with 5 Batteries of 5 MLRS = 25 systems with 101 regt reserves with 3 Batteries of 5 = 15= MLRS total 40 MLRS
7 regt RHA will stay with 16AA and keep the 105mm with 104 regt reserves Betteries 1 & 2 in support
RA regiments
4 , 19 ,26 regt's with 5 Batteries of 6 Archer MAN 8x8 field guns each with 105 regt reserves with 3 Batteries of 4 Archer total 102 guns
5 regt with 6 Batteries of STA
12 regt with 5 Batteries of 6 Boxer based Air Defence vehicle with 106 regt reserves Batteries 1 & 2 in support
16 regt with 5 Batteries of CAMM Air defence systems with 106 regt Batteries 3 & 4 in support
29 regt will stay as Commando unit with its 105mm guns with 104 regt reserves Batteries 3 & 4 in support
32 regt with 5 batteries of Battle field support UAV's
47 regt with 6 Batteries of 3 ScanEagle systems = 9 UAV's per battery
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments
with the move to wheeled highly mobile light & heavy mechanised infantry ( strike brigades ) should we be looking to modify some of current systems like moving from M270 tracked MLRS to a MAN 6x6 based M142 MLRS plus also taking 50 of our 105mm field guns and fitting them to MAN 6x6 trucks to allow these systems to better move with the new Mechanised brigades
Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments
I suspect that vehicle-borne forces, particularly mechanised, will need better protection than softskins and better range than light gun can offer.
With the highly mobile nature planned for these forces, you can’t rely on the support elements being sufficiently removed from elements of the enemy to compromise on protection.
Mechanised/strike would probably want to fire from under armour.
Lighter forces might still want the lighter logistics burden of light gun, either vehicle mounted or towed, particularly if they are trucking around and relying on airborne logistics like is happening in Mali at the moment. Towed might even be preferable so as to minimise the size of vehicle needed.
With the highly mobile nature planned for these forces, you can’t rely on the support elements being sufficiently removed from elements of the enemy to compromise on protection.
Mechanised/strike would probably want to fire from under armour.
Lighter forces might still want the lighter logistics burden of light gun, either vehicle mounted or towed, particularly if they are trucking around and relying on airborne logistics like is happening in Mali at the moment. Towed might even be preferable so as to minimise the size of vehicle needed.
- ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments
Agreed. We should relabel the LG as underslung artillerymr.fred wrote:I suspect that vehicle-borne forces, particularly mechanised, will need better
- there are formations that (at times) will depend on such support
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments
I wasn’t thinking quite that far, more along the lines of ammunition supply. Hauling useful numbers of 155mm takes more lift than 105mm. Plus for the kind of low intensity operations light motorised forces are getting up to, 155mm is probably a bit too much bang.ArmChairCivvy wrote: Agreed. We should relabel the LG as underslung artillery
- there are formations that (at times) will depend on such support
- Tempest414
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments
right now we are ok the newly formed 1st mechanised brigade is still in track vehicles so AS-90 and M-270 tracked artillery is ok but once the 1st move to Boxer tracked artillery will slow it down and need large logistics to keep up for me the point of the wheeled mechanised brigades is they can move hundreds of km's straight into the fight if they have to stop unload there artillery support it some what defeats the goal. however if the heavy strike Brigades have MAN 8x8 Archer and MAN 6x6 M-142 these can keep up and go straight in to the fight.mr.fred wrote:I suspect that vehicle-borne forces, particularly mechanised, will need better protection than softskins and better range than light gun can offer.
As I have said before for me the Boxer brigades need Nemo 120mm mortar equipped Boxer's as part of the Battalions and MAN 8x8 Archer field guns , MAN 6x6 HIMARS and MAN 8x8 ScanEagle launch & recovery UAV's as the Brigade Artillery support
the idea of fitting the 105 gun onto a MAN 6x6 is that the light mechanised brigades could have good mobility and hitting power if they had Spear 120mm mortar equipped Huskies or JLTV's at Battalion level and MAN 6x6 105 field guns , MAN 6x6 HIMARS , MAN 8x8 ScanEagle at brigade level
There will still be a place for the towed 105 gun with 16 AA and the RM
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments
Yes. From one position (with SPG " a fire box") one could easily assume 40 tons worth "going out"mr.fred wrote:more along the lines of ammunition supply. Hauling useful numbers of 155mm takes more lift than 105mm.
Contrast that with size-ing logs for a bn that will need to retain its mobility, in order to be able to conduct a 'fluid' battle... say, half of that (mortar bombs and ATGWs/ manpads included)
- that's per day
- when the 155 mms move on, to the next positiion, there might be the next tasking waiting
An ideal combination. And as Husky is a go-anywhere resupply vehicle, each two with a mortar would be followed by a "bombs" carrier.Tempest414 wrote:good mobility and hitting power if they had Spear 120mm mortar equipped Huskies
- we have loads of Huskies!
- exactly what I had in mind with the "underslung" artilleryTempest414 wrote: There will still be a place for the towed 105 gun with 16 AA and the RM
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments
Yes we could put the Spear 120mm on our Huskies, or fit them to some of the multitude of JLTVs we are supposed to be getting. Same idea though with a "Bomb Limber" for every two Mortar carriers would be a good option for any Motorised units we form with the MRV(P) family. Mind you using the Phase 2 6x6 platform might be better as that combines both into one vehicle.
As mentioned the NEMO should be the preferred weapon for the Mechanised Battalions, and it would provide quite and effective direct fire capability against structures and soft vehicles. Its ability to conduct fire missions including MRSI on the move should make it almost immune to counter battery fire.
I am not a fan of putting the 105mm Light Gun onto a MAN 6x6 chassis. It is limited on what it can provide in the way of support, namely "Dumb" HE or Smoke. With the SPEAR 120mm covering things from 7 to 10 km I would rather see MAN/Archer 8x8 and MAN/HIMARS supporting such Brigades, the same as the planned Mechanised Brigades.
It is generally accepted the British Army needs to increase its artillery assets and so ideally we should not be just replacing the AS-90 and GMLRS one for one with the MAN/Archer and MAN/HIMARS but looking to expand the force, with a minimum of four MAN/Archer Regiments and two MAN?HIMARS Regiments. The purchase of both precision and smart cargo rounds for both the 155mm and 120mm systems as well as more modern rocket for HIMARS including the 500Km+ long range weapon under development. A single Regiment should retain its towed 105mm Light Guns initially to provide support toe our High Readiness formations, but again the 120mm Mortar and a lightweight precision missile system such as Extractor or even a towed six cell GMLRS could replace it providing greater capability.
In addition we need at least one additional Army controlled Land Ceptor Regiment and both the Regular and Reserve Starstreak/LMM Regiments need to convert to a new platform, though retaining the current launcher for the time being. The Pedestal launchers should be passed across to the Infantry Battalions as part of their Weapon Companies. Finally on the Air Defence front we need a Regiment of land based SAMP-T with the latest Aster-30 variant to provide air defence in any theatre as well as providing protection for the UK, supplementing the hopefully upgrades T-45s and their successor. The SAMP-T is more effective than even the latest Patriot version and is cheaper the THAAD as well as more deployable and has a greater concentration of firepower with eight missile per launch vehicle, double that of Patriot.
With the above the RA/RHA will finally be equipped to a level to properly support the Army's Combat Brigades and protect areas from hostile missile attack. The RAF will also need a Regiment of Land Ceptor, though theirs could possibly a cheaper towed variant. This is a three fold increase in the current order of Land Ceptor which currently stands at enough for one Regiment.
Finally the RA/RHA should retain control over the Watchkeeper and any additional UAVs brought into service of a similar type.
As mentioned the NEMO should be the preferred weapon for the Mechanised Battalions, and it would provide quite and effective direct fire capability against structures and soft vehicles. Its ability to conduct fire missions including MRSI on the move should make it almost immune to counter battery fire.
I am not a fan of putting the 105mm Light Gun onto a MAN 6x6 chassis. It is limited on what it can provide in the way of support, namely "Dumb" HE or Smoke. With the SPEAR 120mm covering things from 7 to 10 km I would rather see MAN/Archer 8x8 and MAN/HIMARS supporting such Brigades, the same as the planned Mechanised Brigades.
It is generally accepted the British Army needs to increase its artillery assets and so ideally we should not be just replacing the AS-90 and GMLRS one for one with the MAN/Archer and MAN/HIMARS but looking to expand the force, with a minimum of four MAN/Archer Regiments and two MAN?HIMARS Regiments. The purchase of both precision and smart cargo rounds for both the 155mm and 120mm systems as well as more modern rocket for HIMARS including the 500Km+ long range weapon under development. A single Regiment should retain its towed 105mm Light Guns initially to provide support toe our High Readiness formations, but again the 120mm Mortar and a lightweight precision missile system such as Extractor or even a towed six cell GMLRS could replace it providing greater capability.
In addition we need at least one additional Army controlled Land Ceptor Regiment and both the Regular and Reserve Starstreak/LMM Regiments need to convert to a new platform, though retaining the current launcher for the time being. The Pedestal launchers should be passed across to the Infantry Battalions as part of their Weapon Companies. Finally on the Air Defence front we need a Regiment of land based SAMP-T with the latest Aster-30 variant to provide air defence in any theatre as well as providing protection for the UK, supplementing the hopefully upgrades T-45s and their successor. The SAMP-T is more effective than even the latest Patriot version and is cheaper the THAAD as well as more deployable and has a greater concentration of firepower with eight missile per launch vehicle, double that of Patriot.
With the above the RA/RHA will finally be equipped to a level to properly support the Army's Combat Brigades and protect areas from hostile missile attack. The RAF will also need a Regiment of Land Ceptor, though theirs could possibly a cheaper towed variant. This is a three fold increase in the current order of Land Ceptor which currently stands at enough for one Regiment.
Finally the RA/RHA should retain control over the Watchkeeper and any additional UAVs brought into service of a similar type.
- Tempest414
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments
What I would like to see is the Army with 3 field divisions each with 3 Brigades. Each having a Artillery support group made up of
2 or 3 x batteries of 6 guns
1 or 2 x Batteries of 6 NIMARS
2 x Batteries of Air Defence
1 x battery of 3 ScanEagle systems = 9 UAV's
this would allow each division to have one battalion battle group deployed and one at 30 days readiness at all times
2 or 3 x batteries of 6 guns
1 or 2 x Batteries of 6 NIMARS
2 x Batteries of Air Defence
1 x battery of 3 ScanEagle systems = 9 UAV's
this would allow each division to have one battalion battle group deployed and one at 30 days readiness at all times
Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments
A far better video showing the capabilities of the land based Aster Air Defence System. One of its improved capabilities over Patriot in its current form is that it provided 360 degrees cover whereas Patriot is limited to between 45 and 60 degrees I believe due to its fixed radar.
The Block 2 Aster is in final development and is due to enter service with the French and Italian Armed Forces soon. I also believe it has been renamed but I cannot for the life of me remember what it is now called.
The Block 2 Aster is in final development and is due to enter service with the French and Italian Armed Forces soon. I also believe it has been renamed but I cannot for the life of me remember what it is now called.
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments
Lots of mobile mortars in one article https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... firepower/
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)